Moderator: Community Manager
[Post Reply] [*]  Page 4 of 5  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page « 1 2 3 4 5 »
Author Message
TurretHead
Post subject: Re: Royal South African NavyPosted: November 21st, 2011, 11:55 pm
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 193
Joined: July 31st, 2010, 10:38 am
Location: End of a bad sci fi movie.
Development of the South African fleet 1945-1990

Part 2 (1955 Expansion Program)

After much debate the South African Government announced in 1955 a naval expansion plan to acquire an aircraft carrier centred task force for anti submarine warfare (ASW) for the approaches to the Cape of Good Hope, a submarine force (to train the ASW task force) and modernisation of the Marines from an anti port bombardment force to a coastal defence and amphibious assault force. Defence Minister and later Prime Minister Sir De Villiers Graaff, 2nd Baronet (known as “Div Graaf”) shocked many by selecting the USA as the source of the new equipment over traditional supplier Great Britain. The source selection overshadowed the Simonstown Agreement with the UK where this naval base was transferred to South African control. Both the RN and USN were guaranteed access to South African bases and intelligence and military cooperation continued with the UK who where also supplying much of the South African Army and South African Air Force’s (SAAF) post Korean War re-capitalisation.

The new fleet was to comprise an aircraft carrier, three destroyer leaders with anti air warfare capability and up to 12 ASW destroyers. Supporting the surface fleet was to be a submarine squadron of six boats based in a new base to be built at Gordon’s Bay on the other side of False Bay from the main naval base at Simonstown. To sustain the new fleet the Americans were to transfer technology to South Africa to establish local production of ASW destroyers and submarines. The air wing was to include ASW patrol aircraft, all weather fighters and supporting training aircraft. The maritime rolled squadrons of the SAAF were to be transferred to the new South African Naval Air Service (SANAS).

For the aircraft carrier the RSAN selected a second hand Essex class upgraded to the SCB-125 standard with angled flight deck and steam catapults. The USS Kearsarge was allocated for transfer and underwent extensive conversion in the US during 1956 and 57 before recommissioning as the HMSAS Natal. As a gap fill until the Natal would be available the RSAN acquired the Independence class light aircraft carrier USS Cowpens in 1955 which was commissioned as the HMSAS Rhodesia.

The Cowpens was supplied with an interim air wing of McDonnell F2H-3 Banshees and Douglas AD-4 and AD-4N Skyraiders from USN reserve stocks. Along with the North American T-28C Trojan training aircraft they conducted several training cruises in 1956-58 before the arrival of the HMSAS Natal enabling the RSAN to build up the carrier force. The Banshees were replaced by McDonnell F3H-2 Demons and the Skyraiders by Grumman S2F-2 Trackers. The Rhodesia was kept in service as a flight training carrier and amphibious assault ship after the arrival of the Natal. The Banshees were used by SANAS for fighter lead in training until the late 1960s and the Skyraiders formed the basis of the South African Corps of Marines Air Group (SACMAG).


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
TurretHead
Post subject: Re: Royal South African NavyPosted: November 22nd, 2011, 12:54 am
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 193
Joined: July 31st, 2010, 10:38 am
Location: End of a bad sci fi movie.
RSAN Fleet List 1960

# One Essex class aircraft carrier

HMSAS Natal (ex USS Kearsarge)

# One Independence class aircraft carrier

HMSAS Rhodesia (ex USS Cowpens)

# One Roberts class monitor

HMSAS Good Hope (ex HMS Roberts)

# Three Mitscher class destroyer leaders

HMSA Ships Vrystaat, Transvaal and Südwestafrika

# Six Fletcher class ASW destroyers

HMSA Ships Cape Town (ex USS Anthony), Pretoria (ex USS Ringgold), Johannesburg (ex USS Wadsworth), East London (ex USS Claxton), Salisbury (ex USS Dyson) and Bloemfontein (ex USS Charles Ausburne)

# Three Rapid class ASW destroyers

HMSA Ships Tugela (ex HMS Wessex), Limpopo (ex HMS Whelp) and Orange (ex HMS Wrangler)

# Three Loch class ASW corvettes

HMSA Ships Saldanha (ex HMS Loch Boisdale), Walvis (ex HMS Loch Cree) and Algoa (ex HMS Loch Ard)

# Three Gato class patrol submarines. Upgraded with the GUPPY IB conversion.

HMSA Submarines Orca (ex USS Muskallunge), Muramba (ex USS Paddle) and Wolfherring (ex USS Lapon)

# Six Jaguar class torpedo patrol boats. First two built in Germany by Lurseen with Mercedes-Benz engines. Final four built in South Africa by Dorman Long Van der Bijl Corporation, Durban with Maybach engines. All delivered in 1958-60 and known as the Hunter class in RSAN or “the Fredies”.

HMSA Ships Fredrick Selous, Frederick Burnham, Piet Joubert, Nicolas Smit, Christiaan de Wet and Koos de la Rey

# Six Pioneer class patrol boats. Modified Gay class with refitted Napier Deltic diesel motors, torpedos and 40mm Bofors removed. Used for air sea rescue, target towing and amphibious landing training.

HMSA Ships Jan van Riebeeck, Henry Fynn, Piet Retief, Andries Pretorius, David Livingstone and Alfred Sharpe


SANAS Order of Batle 1960

731 Naval Air Squadron: Basic training unit based at NAS Blouwater with 24 Rhoav Pioneer Mk 2.

732 Naval Air Squadron: Advanced training unit based at NAS Blouwater with 24 North American T-28C Trojan.

733 Naval Air Squadron: Fleet support and transport unit based at NAS Wingfield with 18 Lockheed Ventura and 8 Douglas Dakota.

734 Naval Air Squadron: Fleet helicopter unit based at NAS Wingfield with 24 Sikorsky Chickasaw.

735 Naval Air Squadron: Carrier on board delivery and multi engine training unit based at NAS Wingfield with 12 Grumman TF-1 Trader.

830 Naval Air Squadron “The Furies”: Lead in fighter training unit based at NAS Blouwater with 22 Lockheed T2V Seastar and 41 McDonnell F2H-3 Banshee (most in store).

831 Naval Air Squadron “The Barracudas”: Carrier based ASW patrol unit based at NAS Wingfield with 24 Grumman S2F-2 Tracker.

832 Naval Air Squadron “The Albacores”: ASW patrol training unit based at NAS Wingfield with 22 Grumman S2F-2 Tracker.

833 Naval Air Squadron “The Swordfish”: ASW patrol unit based at NAS Wingfield with 12 Lockheed P2V-5 Neptune.

834 Naval Air Squadron “The Banshees”: All-weather fighter training unit based at NAS Blouwater with 20 McDonnell F3H-2 Demon and 16 McDonnell F3H-1 Demon (non flying ground training aircraft).

835 Naval Air Squadron “The Hurricanes”: Carrier based all-weather fighter unit based at NAS Blouwater with 24 McDonnell F3H-2 Demon.

836 Naval Air Squadron “The Seagulls”: Patrol amphibian unit based at HMSAS Farewell with 12 Grumman UF-1 Albatross.

837 Naval Air Squadron “The Argus”: Carrier based airborne early warning unit based at NAS Wingfield with 8 Grumman WF Tracer.


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
TurretHead
Post subject: Re: Royal South African NavyPosted: November 22nd, 2011, 3:09 am
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 193
Joined: July 31st, 2010, 10:38 am
Location: End of a bad sci fi movie.
[ img ]

RSAN Tugela class ASW destroyers based on the Type 15 ASW conversion of wartime destroyers.

I've used Portsmouth Bill's RAN Type 15 as the base rather than Novice's RN Type 15. I benchmarked the times and the earlier (1949-53) Type 15s had the lower bridge and the later ones a raised bridge. The raised bridge fits the AU timetable better. I've used a STAAG 40mm for the forward AA gun and a few minor changes to Africanise the ship.


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Portsmouth Bill
Post subject: Re: Royal South African NavyPosted: November 23rd, 2011, 9:17 am
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 3220
Joined: August 16th, 2010, 7:45 am
Location: Cambridge United Kingdom
Just a though TH; you've got two flat-tops so they will both need some support from excorts, both aa and asw; even allowing for both not being at sea at the same time, you might need to consider increasing the value of your escorts, maybe going for Adam's class? I'm very interested in this AU, and so far it seems well thought-out; my only querie would be in some of the warships not being compatible, and maybe, due to age etc. not always effective in the roles assigned. But yes, a much larger South Africa would have significant influence arond the tip of Africa, dominating the trade routes. :)


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Biancini1995
Post subject: Re: Royal South African NavyPosted: November 23rd, 2011, 4:06 pm
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 744
Joined: August 19th, 2011, 7:54 pm
i want to see the Carriers will be good. ;)

_________________
Verusea Alternative Universe is starting to build up.


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
SrGopher
Post subject: Re: Royal South African NavyPosted: November 24th, 2011, 12:30 am
Offline
Posts: 371
Joined: April 13th, 2011, 9:21 pm
You have a great AU here! You roster does look good, although would the Independence class work well? I mean, the Dedalo only worked well because she carried Harriers, but fixed-wing jets? That might be a challenge.

_________________
Worklist:
Puerto Oeste - AU - WWI-WWII


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
TurretHead
Post subject: Re: Royal South African NavyPosted: November 24th, 2011, 12:56 am
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 193
Joined: July 31st, 2010, 10:38 am
Location: End of a bad sci fi movie.
Portsmouth Bill wrote:
Just a though TH; you've got two flat-tops so they will both need some support from excorts, both aa and asw; even allowing for both not being at sea at the same time,
I had always seen the Rhodesia (Independence class) being basically discarded by the fleet once the Natal (Essex arrives). She is wheeled out for a cruise or two to support flying training when the Natal is not available and then in the early 60s converted to a LPH role. While still retaining the ability to launch and recover fixed wing aircraft she is mostly used to support a marine air-land battalion sized task force. Until replaced by purpose built LPDs in the late 1960s, early 1970s. A seminal event for the Marines and South African amphibious warfare being the intervention of 9 Marine Amphibious Commando (reinforced company sized) on-board the HMSAS Orange (Type 15 converted to APD) in stopping the Zanzibarian Revolution and subsequent genocide of the Zanzibari Arabs in 1964.
Portsmouth Bill wrote:
Just a though TH; you've got two flat-tops so they will both need some might need to consider increasing the value of your escorts, maybe going for Adam's class?
The 1955 fleet expansion program acquires six ex Fletchers with ASW modification (Weapon Alpha and ASW torpedos but still leaving three 5” guns) in addition to the three Type 15s. The three Loch class are still in commission but for reserve training based at Port Elizabeth, East London and Durban. They are still quite active units up until the mid 1960s providing a permament fleet presence in these eastern maritime cities as most of the fleet is based in the greater Cape Town area.

In addition three new build Mitscher class destroyer leaders are ordered from the US to provide AAW and ASW protection to the carriers. So that’s 12 quite effective (by 1950s standards) ASW platforms by 1960 and three more 1940s standard ASW ships.

Then in addition to all that there is the domestic shipbuilding program. As part of the quid pro pro of ordering three new build destroyers from the USA they agree to help establish a local destroyer production facility in Durban. The RSAN orders three Forrest Sherman type destroyers from this yard for delivery from 1960.

The Charles F. Adams is a natural to follow the Sherman class and the South Africans are very interested in the Tartar system. The plan in the late 1950s is to build Adams class to replace the Type 15s, Fletchers and so on and to refit the Mitscher class with Tartar. Also the Marines want a land mobile Tartar to replace the 3.7” HAA gun and Terrier to replace the beam homing Bloodhound Mk 1s they have. So South Africa orders a lot of Tartars and even establishes local production of the Mk 13 launcher (one of the reasons I have it on my later Zambezi destroyer) but events intrude.

While South Africa was ostracised by the US during the 1960s for Apartheid there is little motivation for similar in this timeline. Especially as South African segregation practices are en par with those in America and similarly in decline. However South Africa manages to get itself embroiled in a foreign war of a highly controversial nature.

In 1960 South Africa signs a mutual defence pact with Portugal to build a line of defence from Angola, across Northern Rhodesia to Mozambique. Also South African naval and marine power can be used to support Portugal’s other colonies like Guinea and those in Asia. Which results in South African involvement in the 1961 Goa War. Details are to follow but this action was called the “Three Day War” by the international press. The RSAN effectively destroys the Indian fleet (sinking the carrier Vikrant by airstrike and the cruiser Delhi by submarine) and hammers the Indian Air Force but is unable to forestall the surrender of Portugese India because of the land invasion of Goa.

The Western powers where generally very happy about the result of the Goa War. India showed her true colours at a time when they had been preaching Gandhism and peaceful neutrality on the international stage but suffered a humiliating defeat. America was more worried as this event was likely (and did) result in India becoming much closer to the Soviet Union. In an attempt to divert this shift in alignment they placed a ban on sales of major new defence equipment to South Africa. While spares and more discreet supplies would continue the USA would no longer sell any major defence equipment to South Africa. So the Tartar order was cancelled and South Africa turned to the UK for alternatives: being the Bloodhound Mk 2 for the marines and Sea Cat for the Navy and joint development of CF.299 (Project Cactus) later called Sea Dart to replace these systems in the 1970s.

Which means the Adams class can’t be built in South Africa. So another six Shermans to an improved design are built and then followed by the Sea Dart equipped Zambezi class.
Portsmouth Bill wrote:
I'm very interested in this AU, and so far it seems well thought-out; my only querie would be in some of the warships not being compatible, and maybe, due to age etc. not always effective in the roles assigned.
I have the Lochs being paid off in the 1960s and replaced by more torpedo boats in the reserve training role. The Type 15s are paid off from ASW role in 1960 as the first Sherman is commissioned. One Type 15 is then converted to a helicopter trials ship to compare Allouette IIIs to the DASH system, the later of which South Africa acquires. Another Type 15 is converted to APD and the third used as a spares hulk. Both remaining Type 15s are paid off in the late 1960s. The Fletchers receive FRAM upgrades in the 1960s with DASH but are replaced in the 1970s by the Zambezis.

The Natal is refitted and upgraded in the mid 1970s so misses Operation Savanah in Angola which causes great controversy. Because if it had been available it would have been able to blockade Luanda and stop the inflow of Cubans and Soviet gear.

The oldest ship is the Roberts monitor which replaced the Erebus as the long planned Cape Town guard ship. Though it is never used in this role. My idea here is to have the Abercrombie purchased in the late 1950s as a spares hulk for the Good Hope (ex Roberts) and then both of them rebuilt in the mid 1960s as amphibious landing support ships. Diesel engines and new upper works to give them another 20 odd years of life. Part of the amphibious expansion after the Zanzibar campaign. I’m not quite sure how but two ships each with two 15”, six 5” and four 3” guns with very low drafts and lots of armour are somehow going to help the border war. Terrorise the Dar as Salem, the Mozambique Channel and south west Angola or something.

The late 1970s RSAN would be:

# 1 Modified Essex class aircraft carrier
# 2 RSAN/French class LPDs (a mix of Ouragan and Jeanne de Arc designs)
# 2 Modified Roberts class LFS (with capacity to land 300 marines)
# 3+3 Zambezi class DDGs
# 6 Modified Sherman class DDs (with DASH and Sea Cat)
# 3 Sherman class DDs

Laid up in reserve will be the Mitscher and Fletcher class. The destroyer force will be contracting at this time because of a greater focus on strike craft for littoral warfare and a new carrier program.


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
TurretHead
Post subject: Re: Royal South African NavyPosted: November 24th, 2011, 1:10 am
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 193
Joined: July 31st, 2010, 10:38 am
Location: End of a bad sci fi movie.
Biancini1995 wrote:
i want to see the Carriers will be good. ;)
Well I’m working away on the Oriskany draw to Bombhead standards so when it’s finished I’ll mod it to the Natal. Also on my to do list is the Independence class. Both will be pretty standard ships in RSAN service just with different paint jobs on the aircraft. The Natal 1970s upgrade should be pretty cool as there is only one radar option to consider… Also the Rhodesia LPH upgrade will draw on the real world South African Tafleberg LPA upgrade with hangars for LCVPs.
SrGopher wrote:
You have a great AU here! You roster does look good, although would the Independence class work well? I mean, the Dedalo only worked well because she carried Harriers, but fixed-wing jets? That might be a challenge.
The Indepndence is only going to be used as a training carrier by the Banshees and Skyraiders. She will never have Demons and Trackers based on her. After the delivery of the Natal she will only carry Trojans and Sea Stars (none of which have folding wings) for carrier quals. As an LPH she will carry some Marine Skyraiders but mostly Allouette and Frelon helos.


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Satirius
Post subject: Re: Royal South African NavyPosted: November 24th, 2011, 3:31 am
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 230
Joined: September 8th, 2010, 11:26 pm
Location: Lawrenceville, NJ
What will happen to the RSAN after the reopening of the Suez Canal? There's no hostile naval power in the Southern Hemisphere, and definitely no navy able to field more than obsolete escorts and missile boats in Africa, and the need to protect the Cape's shipping routes is gone after Egypt moves from the Soviet to the US sphere of influence. If anything, South African power would be best used on land in combating communist insurgencies in Portuguese colonies (supporting UNITA/RENAMO in a much greater capacity against their leftist counterparts in the MPLA/FRELIMO) or propping up Mobutu.

_________________
ALVAMA wrote:
I feel sorry for you, I agree you must have such terrible life, and no girl give you attention, The boys leaved because they were not having a safe feeling when beeing with you. Police never found you. Docters did suidice, because they where impressed you was not killed by birth :)


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
TurretHead
Post subject: Re: Royal South African NavyPosted: November 24th, 2011, 4:51 am
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 193
Joined: July 31st, 2010, 10:38 am
Location: End of a bad sci fi movie.
Satirius wrote:
What will happen to the RSAN after the reopening of the Suez Canal? There's no hostile naval power in the Southern Hemisphere, and definitely no navy able to field more than obsolete escorts and missile boats in Africa, and the need to protect the Cape's shipping routes is gone after Egypt moves from the Soviet to the US sphere of influence. If anything, South African power would be best used on land in combating communist insurgencies in Portuguese colonies (supporting UNITA/RENAMO in a much greater capacity against their leftist counterparts in the MPLA/FRELIMO) or propping up Mobutu.
Well the Suez Canal open or closed via Israeli occupation plays little role in strategic war planning for South Africa (AU or real world). The AU fleet was designed to play a role alongside the USN, RN, RCN, RAN, JSMDF and other NATO navies in a general conventional war with the Soviet Union and PRC (WWIII) as planned by the west in the 1950s. Under such a circumstance most maritime shipping between east and west would go via the Cape of Good Hope rather than the Suez Canal as the Soviets would be launching many air strikes against the Canal, mining it, etc. That is of course if the pro Soviet Egyptians (especially after ’56) would even let the western allies use the canal. Then in the 1960s and 70s Cape Size ships started to emerge as a major part of global maritime trade. These are ships too big for the Suez Canal carrying bulk oil and ore that transit from east to west via the Southern Atlantic. The closing of the Canal from 67-75 simply acts as a public relations reminder and economic exercise of what would happen in war time anyway.

Throughout these events the RSAN is tasked to control the Cape area against Soviet submarines. Much like the RAN at the time was to counter Soviet (and PRC) submarines in South East Asia. These areas are natural choke points for maritime traffic and would be heavily infested by Soviet submarines. Their major concentrations outside the North Atlantic and East Pacific. This is why without a strong RSAN and with South Africa ostracised for Apartheid Western military planners were very worried about the Cape during any general conventional war with the Soviet Union. Their submarines could inflict much damage on the West there.

In my AU the RSAN only places small focus on the littoral anti terrorist (African Nationalist) sea threat until the 1970s. Even then it is considered secondary to the major global trade protection role of the Navy. Though having an aircraft carrier, a couple of squadrons of destroyers and an amphibious force provides the UDF with a few extra ways to fight the African Nationalists with major impact in culminating the Mozambique and Angolan campaigns in the 1980s. It takes a long time to build a naval capability and the fall of Mozambique and Angola are rather rapid events that happen in 1974 which open up the opportunity for insurgency into the Union provinces of Southern Rhodesia and South West Africa. Up until then the UDF’s focus was not on counter insurgency.

Bear in mind this AU so far has only covered the Navy and to a lesser extent the Marines. Without the National Party government the Army and SAAF continue to focus on their global role in the 1950s (conventional warfare in the Middle East) before expanding and focusing on counter insurgency in the 1960s and 70s. I have a few interesting things planned for these forces.


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Display: Sort by: Direction:
[Post Reply]  Page 4 of 5  [ 43 posts ]  Return to “Alternate Universe Designs” | Go to page « 1 2 3 4 5 »

Jump to: 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


The team | Delete all board cookies | All times are UTC


Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited
[ GZIP: Off ]