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Judah14
Post subject: Re: PF-20 Andres Bonifacio (Conjectural Design)Posted: May 8th, 2013, 12:17 am
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bezobrazov wrote:
Hmmm.. Prey tell, where are the bridge wings? I cannot find them. I would also look into ways to integrate the CIWS unit on your hangar with this structure, whereby you can achieve additional stealth capability. The same goes for the Harpoons. Look at the provided Iver Hvidtfeld and Nansen for solutions. Otherwise a promising, but perhaps somewhat overambitious design for a poverty-stricken navy of an even more poverty-stricken country.
The bridge wings are just on the area with the liferafts, patterned after the bridge wings on the Lafayette-class frigates.


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bezobrazov
Post subject: Re: PF-20 Andres Bonifacio (Conjectural Design)Posted: May 8th, 2013, 4:02 pm
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Well, those are technically speaking, I presume, not termed that, since that deck is continuous and there are no extensions on to which a pilot, harbor master or OoD or similar can walk out on. For the confined waters of the Philippines I really think you should put maneuverability at a premium, not stealth! After all, you've got quite literally thousands of islands, bays, coves, isles etc to take cover by...

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acelanceloet
Post subject: Re: PF-20 Andres Bonifacio (Conjectural Design)Posted: May 8th, 2013, 4:48 pm
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there is no bridge wing needed. this is just like what the lafayette class has, indeed, and serves as bridge wing perfectly, although it is part of the bridge itself. it is simply an plated over space on the same position as the dutch LCF and SIGMA ships have, for example, and is quite similar to the bridge wing of the nansen too, although that one is glassed more.

maybe you don't know it, bezo, but ship stealth is more often refered to as 'keeping missiles from hitting us' then really 'hiding where the ship is' and thus, giving that task to bays and inlets, is useless in an modern combat environment, even in the philipines.

I would actually NOT integrate the CIWS with the structure, if the ship operates in confined (littoral) waters, the CIWS should be able to have an as big as possible field of fire and an low weight (non-stealth) as possible construction, for fast operation.

the arnament mix looks good, there are only 2 things I would think too much or too expensive for the philippines keeping in mind their current plans:
-the SLQ-32
-the automated gunmounts amidships.
I would also consider a bit of a tonedown on the VLS, to an Mk 48 or an 8 cell Mk 41 module. 64 ESSM on a ship like this seems a bit like overkill to me, but this of course depends on how many reload abilities there are and the number you have available.

another point you would have to check, is if this radar fit works: IIRC, CEAFAR works with an separate air search radar, like SPS-49. I might be wrong on that, but I would think you get at the very least an search range penalty if you leave it out.

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TimothyC
Post subject: Re: PF-20 Andres Bonifacio (Conjectural Design)Posted: May 8th, 2013, 5:00 pm
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acelanceloet wrote:
another point you would have to check, is if this radar fit works: IIRC, CEAFAR works with an separate air search radar, like SPS-49. I might be wrong on that, but I would think you get at the very least an search range penalty if you leave it out.
There is a penalty, but at least Huntington Ingals does not see this as critical because they showed a proposal without any other radar other than surface search/navigation.

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bezobrazov
Post subject: Re: PF-20 Andres Bonifacio (Conjectural Design)Posted: May 8th, 2013, 6:47 pm
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Ace, I know perfectly well what stealth mean. However, I do reiterate my concern for the overall navigational optic visibility of this design, and FYI, maybe you don't know, but one reason designers have more and more begun to integrate such details as protruding bridge wings, is the stealth. And I do not agree with you about the uselessness of natural obstacles etc. they still can create false radar echoes/pictures or add to one existing or even blot something out. Radar is good, but it's not omniscient or omnipotent!
However, I agree with you, ace, on second thought, about the CIWS. It is probably the best way it can be currently.

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Judah14
Post subject: Re: PF-20 Andres Bonifacio (Conjectural Design)Posted: May 9th, 2013, 12:40 am
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acelanceloet wrote:
there is no bridge wing needed. this is just like what the lafayette class has, indeed, and serves as bridge wing perfectly, although it is part of the bridge itself. it is simply an plated over space on the same position as the dutch LCF and SIGMA ships have, for example, and is quite similar to the bridge wing of the nansen too, although that one is glassed more.

maybe you don't know it, bezo, but ship stealth is more often refered to as 'keeping missiles from hitting us' then really 'hiding where the ship is' and thus, giving that task to bays and inlets, is useless in an modern combat environment, even in the philipines.

I would actually NOT integrate the CIWS with the structure, if the ship operates in confined (littoral) waters, the CIWS should be able to have an as big as possible field of fire and an low weight (non-stealth) as possible construction, for fast operation.

the arnament mix looks good, there are only 2 things I would think too much or too expensive for the philippines keeping in mind their current plans:
-the SLQ-32
-the automated gunmounts amidships.
I would also consider a bit of a tonedown on the VLS, to an Mk 48 or an 8 cell Mk 41 module. 64 ESSM on a ship like this seems a bit like overkill to me, but this of course depends on how many reload abilities there are and the number you have available.

another point you would have to check, is if this radar fit works: IIRC, CEAFAR works with an separate air search radar, like SPS-49. I might be wrong on that, but I would think you get at the very least an search range penalty if you leave it out.
FYI, the Philippine Navy is actually planning to buy the same kind of automatic gun mount installed on this ship. Read this article on timawa.net. And the Israeli Sa'ar 5 corvettes have as 64-cell VLS.
Update: Added lightweight torpedo. Mk. 32 torpedo tubes are hidden behind the small shutter.


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