Republic of Denton: Revisited

Here is a 6x6 version. It follows the same basic set-up of the 8x8 vehicle, and has 3 crew with a capacity of 7 troops.
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Salide - Denton - The Interrealms

I am not very active on the forums anymore, but work is still being done on my AUs. Visit the Salidan Altiverse Page on the SB Wiki for more information. All current work is being done on Google Docs.
If anyone wishes for their nations to interact with the countries of the Salidan Altiverse, please send me a PM, after which we can further discuss through email.

I have to say that's an extremely awkward layout. Aside from all the issues with having the engine and thus the CoG off the centerline, you've removed any chance of it being used as an Ambulance or any other role except carrying seven people.
Go for a front engine and a proper rear engine, or if that's not to your liking you should be able to fit it at least partially under the turret.

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That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error

Worklist

Source Materiel is always welcome.

Several things:
1) I don't want the turret in the middle of the vehicle. I think it looks ugly, and I want the turret in the front.
2) If I put the engine in front (with the turret), I will lose all amphibious capability and good handling characteristics because of the front end being very heavy compared to the rear.
3) I never had any intentions to use this vehicle as an ambulance. I will most likely use the base of an amphibious cargo truck for an ambulance or an MRAV.
4) It is based on the Ratel, which also had a rear door along with 2 side doors. This family of APCs are 1.5 feet wider than the Ratel, therefore giving me some more space to work with.
5) Having the engine offset allows for me to utilize a rear door along with the side doors, to allow the troops to disembark faster. The turret is offset to the left to balance the weight of the engine on the right.

Regardless of what I decide to do with the interior, the side view will stay the same. The top view is more or less a basic (not an exact) representation of where the troop seats are, in relation with the turret and engine.

I was a bit worried about the clearance again in the 8x8 version - unless the gunner is pretty much dead center in the turret and in a rather compact turret, the guy next to him has some fun times. The 6x6 seems fine due to plenty of space.

I wouldn't call the layout completely bad - at Militaryphotos.net quite a few people pointed out the usefulness of the side doors in ambushes etc, apparently they were quite useful in the BTRs in Afghanistan, both ways, making exiting safer and also helping with picking up wounded. An dedicated ambulance variant would have more space naturally, since there wouldn't be a turret (if you follow the conventions etc). I'd say 2 stretcher patients, a few sitting ones, and a medic with supplies wouldn't be too crowded. In a "battlefield lance" mode the side doors would be useful, but maneuvering the stretchers inside might be tricky. Especially with the 6x6 variant. The again, that prolly applies to most APCs...

I've noticed that the rebuilds of Ratel generally mount the engine forward and to the side similar to other APCs, to introduce a rear-loading ramp, and get rid of the side doors or retain only one. Due to your branch of education, you probably have a pretty good idea of the powerpack size and possible layouts?

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"Flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." - D.N. Adams

I tried to put most of the equipment in the turret, to reduce the penetration into the troop compartment. In the 8x8 version, the soldier sitting to the right of the turret should be ok, becuase the gunner will be in the center. The soldier would just have to make sure to keep his head down when moving toward the door (if the turret was centered L/R then he would definitely be cramped).

I have modified the dimensions a little bit more by increasing the side doors once again to a more comfortable 30 inches, so that means that the rear door and side doors are 30 inches. I figure 30 inches would be enough to comfortably lug a strecher in. If going through the side doors, the patients would be perpendicular to the vehicle. If going through the rear, the strechers could block access to one of the side doors(probably the right one)(which would not have much use in those circumstances i would assume) by setting the strechers parallel with the vehicle. Of course, I am not military, so I have no idea. If the turret was removed, and the stretchers set perpendicular, there should be more than enough room for 2 strecher patients, 3 sitting patients, and one or two medics.

To keep from contradicting myself, I said that I was not planning on using this as an ambulance. If my calculations sound good, then I will make a dedicated Ambulance.

Ehh, with my education... Yeah I guess. I don't want to overqualify myself or anything. Basically my field covers all aspects of keeping a manufacturing facility up and running, preventive and predictive maintenance, and basically everything mechanical, hydraulic etc etc.

Regarding the powerplant of the APC I figured 7 feet long by 30 inches wide (of full useable space) would cover it. I was thinking of a hydro-mechanical drivetrain, like that on the BTR-90, so that would definitely reduce the space needed for a mechanical transmission.

Here is the modified AIFV with the 4x4, 6x6, and 8x8 variants. I was planning on doing a 10x10 with a 120mm cannon, but I haven't gotten it to work yet.
[ img ]

ezgo394 wrote:

Several things:
1) I don't want the turret in the middle of the vehicle. I think it looks ugly, and I want the turret in the front.

I'm not saying you should move the turret, I'm saying you should move the engine.

ezgo394 wrote:

2) If I put the engine in front (with the turret), I will lose all amphibious capability and good handling characteristics because of the front end being very heavy compared to the rear.

Again, I'm not telling you to move the turret and there's no reason why it should loose its amphibious capabilities. Quite the opposite. By moving the engine to under the turret you'll move the CoG to the actual center of the vehicle, rather than slightly behind and to the right of it as it is now.

ezgo394 wrote:

3) I never had any intentions to use this vehicle as an ambulance. I will most likely use the base of an amphibious cargo truck for an ambulance or an MRAV.

Even if that's the cease, you're still severely limiting the utility of the vehicle. It'll take quite a bit longer to disembark from the rear which is unfortunate if your enemy is to the front, you can only carry a single stretcher which is unfortunate to say the least even if you have a dedicated ambulance and you can forget about carrying anything that can't move around by itself. And don't tell me you won't be using this to truck around supplies from time to time.

ezgo394 wrote:

4) It is based on the Ratel, which also had a rear door along with 2 side doors. This family of APCs are 1.5 feet wider than the Ratel, therefore giving me some more space to work with.

I'm not saying you should ditch the side doors, I'm saying you're being stuid with your internal layout.

ezgo394 wrote:

5) Having the engine offset allows for me to utilize a rear door along with the side doors, to allow the troops to disembark faster. The turret is offset to the left to balance the weight of the engine on the right.

Having the engine under the turret will allow you to have a proper rear ramp and side doors and it'll simplify the transmission greatly. And you'll have to offset the turret quite a bit more to compensate for the weight.

I know you don't want me to move the turret. But if I want a balanced vehicle, the best thing to do would be to move the 2 biggest weight factors, the turret and the engine.

The CoG is technically balanced as it is with the weight of the turret compensating for the weight of the engine in the rear. I think it is pretty clear that if I move the engine to the front half of the vehicle (where "under the turret" is), it will mess up the CoG.

Well as discussed in one of the previous posts, I think it might be able to handle the ambulance role adequately. Carrying cargo? Are you saying that hand loading is too hard? Honestly, I wouldnt mind. If the cargoes being hauled were any heavier than 100lbs and any larger than a 2ft^3 box, then it would make more sense to just get a dedicated transport vehicle.

So... You're telling me that having the rear door limits my (rear) troop's ability to disembark and attack an enemy at the front of the vehicle, when in fact YOU are saying to add a "proper" rear door?

I never heard you say ditch the side doors. What I was saying was that having the vehicle 1.5 ft wider than the ratel, means that the "tunnel" that goes from the main compartment to the rear door can be 1.5 ft wider, thus allowing the space to be utilized (using comparably the same engine space as the ratel would).

Now you're saying that if I put the engine in the front, I will have to offset the turret even more? It's maxed out. That's as far as it will go until I have to modify the side hull structure.
Plus as stated before, the Transmission is hydro-mechanical.

To clarify this, I don't think proper is the correct word. Proper rear door? The best word would be popular, because that's what most everyone uses, but not "proper."

At this point, I'm already keeping the basic idea. I've got this figured out. Now, if someone who is military who has actually had experience with getting in and out of these things with full combat gear has some ideas or comments then I would be glad to hear them.

Been a while since I posted but I need help with something for my next AU (still a WIP. Once I get the history typed out, and some vehicles drawn I will post it). I have run into a problem concerning my military. I am going to have a professional army, and enforced conscription for 2 years.

Here are the basic military specs that I have typed out. My question is where do I put my conscripts? Should I include them in the Active numbers or the Reserve numbers? I based most of my equipment count off of the Hellenic armed forces (they are comparable in size), and my next question is do I account for more equipment for all the extra troops? For example I have 1300 MBTs, if I refigured my numbers that would give me around 3000 MBTs. Or should I just triple the amount of APCs and add some more support vehicles?

Annual Military budget:
1.5% of GDP, or $13,125,000,000

Military age: 18-45

Conscription: 24 Months, Mandatory from age 18 to 20 for both men and women.

Available for Military service:
Male: 3,740,000 (age 15-49)
Female: 3,740,000 (age 15-49)

Fit for military service
Male: 3,250,000 (age 15-49)
Female: 3,250,000 (age 15-49)

Reaching military age annually:
Male: 110,000
Female: 110,000

1.0% active, 0.5% Reserve, 0.2% NatGuard, 0.2% Police

Military Size
Army: 95,000
Air Force: 37,500
Navy: 35,000 + 7,500 MSC
Total Active: 175,000

Reserves
Army Reserve: 65,000
Air Force Reserve: 12,000
Navy Reserve: 10,500
Total Reserve: 87,500 + Conscripts (275,000-295,000)

National Guard
National Guard: 35,000
Total National Guard: 35,000

Coast Guard
Coast Guard: 5,000
Total Coast Guard: 5,000

Police Forces Size (including all special units):
35,000

I may just be completely off the grid, but I really am not sure what to do here.
And for those of you who will ask me to, NO I will not get rid of conscription for females or males.

Thank you in advance for your feedback,
Ethan

Conscripts serving their obligation (usually from 9 months to 2 years) are counted into Active numbers. Reserves are those, that already served and now are living a civilian life, being liable to recall if needed.

As for the size of Your armed forces being comparable to Hellenic Armed Forces...
You wrote: Military size (...) Total Active: 175,000, Reserves (...) Total Reserve: 87,500 + Conscripts (275,000-295,000).
Well, it either makes no sense, or these armed forces are not comparable to HAF.
If You meant 175,000 career soldiers (officers, NCO's, extended-duty privates) PLUS 275,000 conscripts serving their active duty obligation at any given time, then, with 450,000 men under arms Your Armed Forces aren't the size of HAF, but some 2,5 times larger (and in turn those 87,500 reserves would be pathetically small - effectively it means, that there's no recall obligation).
On the other hand, if You mean, that at any given time there are 175,000 soldiers under arms (regulars and conscripts), then You just add those 87,500 "reserves" and 275,000-295,000 "conscripts" and get some 370,000 reserves.

According to The Military Balance 2010 by The International Institute of Strategic Studies, HAF at the time had total strength of 156,600 soldiers, including some 50,500 1-year conscripts (and 100,100 career soldiers) plus reserves of 237,500 (former career soldiers and former conscripts).
Note, that HAF are actually going towards mostly volunteer army.
In the 1990-1991 (according to that years Military Balance) HAF had 162,500 active soldiers, including 126,800 2-year conscripts, plus reserves of some 406,000.

In the 1990 Hellenic Army had 10 Infantry Divisions, 1 Para-Commando Division, 7 Armored/Mechanized Brigades (with 2 umbrella Division HQ's), 1 Marine Brigade, plus a Territorial Army for coastal and island defence (13,250 cadre, some 17,000 active-duty conscripts and 120,000 reserves - counted in that grand total of 406,000) with around of 100 infantry batallions (of that about 20 active and 80 reserve). And on top of it, of course support (corps-level artillery, air defence, engineers, army aviation, signals, medical service, logistics, training establishments, staffs and administration).

In conscript militaries units are kept at various levels of readiness - starting from units in high readiness, that could go to war almost immediately, to units that are fully reserve, with no or almost no active personnel.

Hellenic Army in 1990 had units in 3 categories: A - 85% (and more) fully ready, B - 60% ready in 24 hours, C - 20% (or less) ready in 48 hours.
In category A - 2 Infantry Divisions, 1 Para-Commando Division, 7 Armored/Mechanized Brigades, 1 Marine Brigade, 2 Brigades/Regiments of Territorial Army'
In category B - 3 Infantry Divisions, 4 Regiments of Territorial Army;
In category C - 5 Infantry Divisions, all remaining Territorial Army (those 80 bns).

Full strength of an average division is usually between 12,000-18,000 soldiers. But remember, that modern armies have very long "tail", meaning support formations. US Army has probably longest tail of all and had in 2010 10 active and 8 National Guard divisions with a strength of about 550,000 active and 360,000 ArNG (that gives a statistical total of 50,000 soldiers per one division, with only about 15,000 in the division itself and 35,000 elsewhere).
For other armies You can assume, that in average fully mobilized army You'll have no better than 1:1 ratio that is for 10,000 soldiers in front-line units You'll have another 10,000 in support.

As for the equipment. And those 1300-3000 tanks. What is the geographical location of Your country? Do I understand correctly, that it's an island? In that case You don't need even those 1300 tanks. And 3000 tanks for army of 170,000 active/540,000 war establishment is a high number. That's an army that expects large tank battles and in real world could be seen only in Central Europe during Cold War and Middle Eastern countries expecting Israeli-Arab war (Israel, Syria, Egypt, Saddam's Iraq).
NATO-style armored division would have around 15,000 soldiers, some 240-350 tanks, some 200 AIFV's, about 100 howitzers and MRLs, about 50 mortars plus air defence, anti-tank weapons and several thousand support vehicles. (in Mechanized division proportions of tanks and AIFV's would be more-or-less reversed and would need more soldiers due to more infantry).
Soviet armored division in the 80s had about 10,000 soldiers (full strength), some 320 tanks, some 180 AIFV's and APC's, about 120 howitzers and 18 MRLs, about 36 mortars plus strong air defence etc. Motor-rifle division would have about 14,000 soldiers, some 210 tanks, some 300 AIFV's etc.

If You have any questions You can ask them here or PM me.

Shipbucket

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