Artist Permission Request

Mr Bond, I do think you answered several of our questions. $30 per drawing is actually more than I expected, but then I'm quite modest. One problem which needs to be solved though, provided SB decides to go along with your proposal, is how to disburse the compensation when more than one artist is credited. Would it still be 50/50, I e 50% to SB, and the remainder split 25/25, that is $7.50 per artist, and what would happen if one artist in a colab effort but not the other (-s) would ask for a higher compensation. Would then this agreement be extended to the remaining artists for the same artwork?

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My Avatar:Петр Алексеевич Безобразов (Petr Alekseevich Bezobrazov), Вице-адмирал , царская ВМФ России(1845-1906) - I sign my drawings as Ari Saarinen

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The idea of someone sending me $7.50 via PayPal because of some contributions at Shipbucket just seems so... base.

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One problem which needs to be solved though, provided SB decides to go along with your proposal, is how to disburse the compensation when more than one artist is credited.

It results in too many questions for it to be workable. Shipbucket has never been monetized.

Let's remember that according to the fair-use agreement, Larry can use the drawing as long as it's credited properly and remains in the template. In the staff forum, Hood nailed it when he said that any publication is going to "make money", and again, it's not like the ship is the entire focus of the war game. I didn't understand the rationale for its use until it was explained in depth. Since it's one drawing on one page of a 180-page manual, don't think it's that big of a deal. As long as it's credited and remains in the original template (within reason).

If Larry wants to reimburse Novice for the image, that's where we run into the problems.

Only fear I have for the whole issue is that by someway agreeing to publish our drawings in some book will transfer the copyright of our work to the publisher that would in someways prevent us rest use those drawings as the fair use agreement allows. Or that some invidual artist would start seeing things too much dollar signs on his eyes and begins to demand similar things. That has been the basis of why I have previously turned down everyone's request to make money with Shipbucket drawings.

In any case I don't want people sending money to me directly when they use someone other's drawings. If there is any payments made, they should go to the original artist (whom by them judges by his own conscience what to do with that money) Or we staff make out a special pay pall account for such matters (which probably would be quite far-out compared how much use such account would actually have)

Lest anyone misunderstood me: my position regarding monetary compensation is neutral, in that I don't mind being recognized as an accomplished artist ( I hope!?!) by some sort of pecuniary action; however, I'm not drawing to make money. I'm drawing because it's a passion of mine; naval history, nautica, model building etc. I no longer have time or room to do any model making, so that leaves me with the drawing part. I do agree with Colo's statement about the meagreness of a potential compensation, but if SB accepts the proposal, for which there seem little reason to worry they will, then that's what you're talking about - and the more artists credited, the less the compensation rate, if we apply proportionality to the calculation process.

I would like to first state that this post is made in my capacity as a member, not as a staff member (it is informed by information I know as a staff member, but in no way is meant to represent policy).

Gollevainen wrote:

Under the current agreement, I don't think that can happen, but I am not a Lawyer. That said, I do see the need for a stronger legal framework.

Gollevainen wrote:

Or that some invidual artist would start seeing things too much dollar signs on his eyes and begins to demand similar things. That has been the basis of why I have previously turned down everyone's request to make money with Shipbucket drawings.

That's a good point, and I think it ties into the last sentence above.

Gollevainen wrote:

In any case I don't want people sending money to me directly when they use someone other's drawings. If there is any payments made, they should go to the original artist (whom by them judges by his own conscience what to do with that money) Or we staff make out a special pay pall account for such matters (which probably would be quite far-out compared how much use such account would actually have)

I'm a firm believer in artist's rights, and any time there is more than one name on a drawing, I think all of the artists should be in agreement for a decision.

For me, attribution is, right now, more important than monetary compensation.

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Well said Thimthy. At first I thought to turn the offer down completly, as my sole interest here is, as Bezzo said, a hoby a replacement for modelling. The idea of helping pay forvthe Shipbucket server fees slightly turned my mind into agreeing and again I must emphasise that this particular offer must conform to the Shipbucket fair use agreement. Ialso want to stress the point that in no way was I thinking of getting paid for these drawings, posted here. One point that I want made is that mr. Bond's offer is for using only one drawings from some thousands of drawings already in the archives. It is also needs to be remembered that said drawing is to be published in a book form, which begs the question how do you keep the size of the drawing and template size as laid out by the fair user agreement. As for this particular offer I defer to the administration team's decission.

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Thank you Kim for the crest

"Never fear to try on something new. Remember that the Titanic was built by professionals, and the Ark by an amateur"

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One problem which needs to be solved though, provided SB decides to go along with your proposal, is how to disburse the compensation when more than one artist is credited. Would it still be 50/50, I e 50% to SB, and the remainder split 25/25, that is $7.50 per artist, and what would happen if one artist in a colab effort but not the other (-s) would ask for a higher compensation. Would then this agreement be extended to the remaining artists for the same artwork?

Remember Rule #1

If there's more than one artist, then the two of them agree between them how much each should get. And the amount of money may not be the same next time. Larger ships are more work for the artist than smaller ones. As a point of comparison, our staff artist is paid by the hour - I don't know how much it is, but he's very good.

Now I have to ask a question.

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Let's remember that according to the fair-use agreement, Larry can use the drawing as long as it's credited properly and remains in the template. In the staff forum, Hood nailed it when he said that any publication is going to "make money", and again, it's not like the ship is the entire focus of the war game. I didn't understand the rationale for its use until it was explained in depth. Since it's one drawing on one page of a 180-page manual, don't think it's that big of a deal. As long as it's credited and remains in the original template (within reason).

If Larry wants to reimburse Novice for the image, that's where we run into the problems.

Colesseum referred to "Fair Use." As I understand it here in the US, Fair Use is a description posted by an individual or group defining (within guidelines) when work can be used without payment. For example, Google Earth images can can be used freely (and I have used them) as long as the logo in the lower right corner is displayed. It can't be cropped out.

If there is a set of Fair Use standards for Shipbucket, are they posted anywhere? And I thought that because Clash of Arms is a business, sellng its products, Fair Use didn't apply.

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That is definitely NOT the case. Rights are not transferred from one person to another unless they are expressly stated. Only those rights agreed to by both parties are transferred. For example, our agreement with Novice could say, "grants permission to use drawing xxx in Bywater's War." I can't do another thing with the image without going back to Novice and asking again.

Second question: Several members have referred to the "template." Is this another word for the standard format used by all the drawings - the scale across the top, the name in the upper right, etc? To be honest, the scale bar on the dummy page has been shrunk so that it cannot be read. I wouldn't mind cropping it out of the image. On the other hand, there's room for me to make the aircraft bigger so they can be seen better. Would that be a problem, even though it makes the image clearer (in this case)?

Regarding the issue of receiving payment: From my point of view, this is something I do all the time, requesting permissions, and sometimes paying for images. Some rights holders just want to make sure that they are properly credited. Some want so much money that they are too expensive for us to use.

There are many people whose hobby has value to another person. I like to build scale models, and I'm pretty good at it. One of my friends can't build models very well, so he asked me to build some kits for him. My compensation was to get one of his other unbuilt kits for every one I built for him. All mutually agreed to.

Compensation is simply a way of acknowledging the value of an artist's work. It can be publicity, merchandise, money, or anything else that both sides agree to. I doubt that anyone in SB will get rich selling their art. It's not about turning SB into a business, but about getting SB drawings out to a wider audience, while respecting the value of the artist's work.

By the way, it's customary to send the artist a free copy of whatever publication his work appears in.

LLBond wrote:

Now I have to ask a question.

Colesseum referred to "Fair Use." As I understand it here in the US, Fair Use is a description posted by an individual or group defining (within guidelines) when work can be used without payment. For example, Google Earth images can can be used freely (and I have used them) as long as the logo in the lower right corner is displayed. It can't be cropped out.

If there is a set of Fair Use standards for Shipbucket, are they posted anywhere? And I thought that because Clash of Arms is a business, sellng its products, Fair Use didn't apply.

Yes, as a matter of fact, we have a Fair Use Agreement, (I call it the Shipbucket Fair Use Agreement or SbFUA). It is currently located here, on the main site and reads as follows.

Code: Select all

Shipbucket is a fair-use organization, paying respect to the assumed copyright laws of intellectual property. Any party may use, alter, or reproduce the images and products located on the Shipbucket Photobucket account or forums so long as they offer proper credit to the drawing's original author(s).

Shipbucket recognises a strict system of templates and crediting, and the image authors may always be found in the upper right-hand corner of the image template along with, and directly below, the ship nation and class name.

Any alteration or reproduction must give proper credit to the original author. In traditional Shipbucket style this is done for alterations by placing you (the alterer) after the contributing authors in the following style; (Author & Author). For every additional author (alterer) the credit is expanded by adding "& Author" following the last author in the original credits.

In the instance of reproductions for websites, magazines, radio or television broadcasts, or any other form of media or assembly in which a Shipbucket image will be displayed, the original credits must be maintained on the image in their original font style, font size, and font color. Shipbucket recognises the need in some reproduction instances for the image to be cropped or otherwise altered in size, however the author credits must remain on the image in a clear and easily discernible fashion maintaining their font size, font style, and font color.

Failure to provide proper credit in any alteration or reproduction of a Shipbucket image or product may result in legal investigations and charges under the rights provided by international law relevant to intellectual property and fair-use.

While the original statement is only for the photobucket account, it also applies to the works on the main site of Shipbucket.com. The line about font size and color is so that the credits remain readable

The closest general license for the image would be the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported. This only applies to the image (I personally am not a fan of the reach of things like the GPL), and would not apply to the work the image is in.

LLBond wrote:

Second question: Several members have referred to the "template." Is this another word for the standard format used by all the drawings - the scale across the top, the name in the upper right, etc? To be honest, the scale bar on the dummy page has been shrunk so that it cannot be read. I wouldn't mind cropping it out of the image. On the other hand, there's room for me to make the aircraft bigger so they can be seen better. Would that be a problem, even though it makes the image clearer (in this case)?

That would be correct The current repository of blank templates can be found here. As noted above, the scale ban can be removed, but credit must be maintained. It is my personal opinion that the sample you showed would probably meet the requirements of the fair use agreement, but as the primary rights holder is Novice, that's his call.

LLBond wrote:

By the way, it's customary to send the artist a free copy of whatever publication his work appears in.

I can't tell Novice (who is the primary rights holder, and has the final say) no in this case because there is a previous case of a few members having their work published with attribution.

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I observed this discussion and now I would like to add my opinion or better my point of view.
Just for common understanding I am from Italy and I "fighted" recently against the Italian Navy and its official magazine because they used improperly SB drawings. Basically I claimed for credits and I got an official feedback which included also the block of the wrong pdf version ot the article available in their web site.
Beside this level of claims I am not able to figure out higher level of protection for our drawings.
Most of the people are taking our drawings and then they use as they like.
Mr. Bond is paying attention to us (beside our drawings) and he asked for the permission to use a drawing. Moreover he also was open to discuss and to explain us (I mean to all the community) what it means "payment": I liked a lot his explanation about models exchange...
So, if I could add my personal opinion about all this long discussion, I think that the permission should come from the Artist (let's say Novice in this case) and that this permission will be compensated in a suitable way (agreed betweem Bond and Novive) that could be also without real bucks exchange.
As SB we should be glad about the fair approach of Mr. Bond and we should stop ourselves asking for rigth credits.

Antonio (from Italy)

Lazer, that was a very thoughtful opinion. Never thought of that problem in such a way. However, I do still agree that, since SB is generous enough to host our drawings, making them available to the public in the first place, without us having to build our own websites, which, furthermore may not be ranked high enough to "grab" attention with regards to viewing traffic, them SB should also receive a share of the monetary compensation; how much, what percentage, can always be discussed. I also believe it'd be a safer, less complicated, perhaps even less odious way to arrange this through a sort of SB sponsored account which would be instrumental in the final disbursement of the compensation. One or several people would, by necessity, have to be "appointed" 'Treasurer(-s)' for this to work, and ideally it ought to be someone disassociated with the moderators and with some financial or fiscal knowledge.

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