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travestytrav25
Post subject: Re: Fleshing out an Unmanned Warship conceptPosted: August 16th, 2012, 12:44 am
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It'd probably be easier to remotely launch and recover your USVs with a stern ramp system instead of more traditional davits.


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klagldsf
Post subject: Re: Fleshing out an Unmanned Warship conceptPosted: August 16th, 2012, 1:29 am
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Yes, you need a lot more aerials for communication and you need a stern ramp but now you're heading in the right direction.


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Lebroba
Post subject: Re: Fleshing out an Unmanned Warship conceptPosted: August 16th, 2012, 2:53 am
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The navy is working on firefighting robots. I.would look into the comcept that gave birth to LCS called streetfighter. Smaller more agile and most importantly didposbale ships that could wage war in the littorals.


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klagldsf
Post subject: Re: Fleshing out an Unmanned Warship conceptPosted: August 16th, 2012, 4:24 am
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You don't really have disposable ships until you have unmanned ships (or willingly suicidal crews). And even then a disposable ship (i.e., a ship that can't defend itself, which is what Streetfighter was) ends up being a waste of money no matter how cheap. That's why it died and why LCS ended up being what it is today.

From what I heard, what made Streetfighter attractive was because by having a lot of small ships, you'd need a lot of ship captains, and this made a lot of young Ensigns excited in an environment that didn't foresee an actual shooting war too well. In an actual shooting environment I'm sure those would-be Captains would gladly settle for being ensigns or lieutenants on a well-protected destroyer. Of course I'm more or less talking out my ass; Erik and Tim know more than I do, but they'll give you the same by-and-large opinion: Streetfighter was not a well-conceived proposition.

The minimum requirements an unmanned ship would need would be a comprehensive AAW suite to defend itself (nothing less than ESSM), 360 degree EO sensors, and 360 coverage in the form of surface armaments like Mk 38 Mod 2. An LCS-like hangar and well deck would also give it some actual utility. I do believe it's possible, and it would be free as far as human cost is concerned, but it wouldn't be super-cheap.

Oh, and Streetfighter/LCS was supposed to place its crew deep in the ship with the idea that the ship would essentially sacrifice itself to protect its crew by eating missiles, but I wouldn't volunteer to throw myself into the Persian Sea and hope my Iranian captors would be hospitable. I'd rather come home in a properly defended ship.


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Lebroba
Post subject: Re: Fleshing out an Unmanned Warship conceptPosted: August 16th, 2012, 6:55 am
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I think the street fighter concept called for 12 man crews and ships that were about 500 tons. I think that would be a good size for a series of primarily autonomous ships. The thing about a "robot" ship is, you would still require a crew on shore somewhere. Active and Passive analysis of SONAR contacts can not be performed by a computer. You might want to have an ASTAC evaluating contacts before you give weapons release to a computer on a Fire Scout. For that you will need networking capability with serious throughput.

The other pet peave about LCS is, besides the fact that it cant do anything, is that they want it to be able to do everything. Do you need to do BMD? No, you have the remaining cruiser fleet, Flight I & II Burkes and (maybe someday Flight IIIs), Does it need to do NGFS? No. You have Zumwalt and the previously mentioned CG/DDGs.

What core capabilities does a robotic LCS style ship need? It needs to be able to track the incoming Boghammers, engage and detroy them, It needs to detect and engage the quiet diesel threat, and it needs to shoot down any incoming missiles/aircraft. The drone idea would be good for OTH targeting and Situational awerness.

For teh design Id say start with what you do need for a new ship class instead of taking away stuff from an existing one.


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Rhade
Post subject: Re: Fleshing out an Unmanned Warship conceptPosted: August 16th, 2012, 7:24 am
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Lebroba wrote:
Active and Passive analysis of SONAR contacts can not be performed by a computer.
But they are, all information from sensor units are gather, select and process to sound and picture for crew. Computer do 99% work now and if you use all top grade techs you can eliminate about 80% of crew stations. It will not be cheap, rather expensively like hell. In that higly automated ship you need only a command & maintenance section, more of IT men ... less sailors.

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Lebroba
Post subject: Re: Fleshing out an Unmanned Warship conceptPosted: August 16th, 2012, 8:26 am
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Rhade wrote:
Lebroba wrote:
Active and Passive analysis of SONAR contacts can not be performed by a computer.
But they are, all information from sensor units are gather, select and process to sound and picture for crew. Computer do 99% work now and if you use all top grade techs you can eliminate about 80% of crew stations. It will not be cheap, rather expensively like hell. In that higly automated ship you need only a command & maintenance section, more of IT men ... less sailors.
A machine might be able to distinguish a contact from background noise, but we are a long way from giving a computer autonomous weapons release authority.


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Rhade
Post subject: Re: Fleshing out an Unmanned Warship conceptPosted: August 16th, 2012, 9:59 am
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Oh we are a short way to give them that ... and that's not a good thing. In generation or two there will be no man ver man wars but machines ver machines, soldier will be a "child" with PC playing RTS. Sad future ... very sad. :(

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klagldsf
Post subject: Re: Fleshing out an Unmanned Warship conceptPosted: August 16th, 2012, 4:33 pm
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Lebroba wrote:
I think the street fighter concept called for 12 man crews and ships that were about 500 tons. I think that would be a good size for a series of primarily autonomous ships. The thing about a "robot" ship is, you would still require a crew on shore somewhere.
Or you can have the crew on a ship nearby. Something like a bigger LCS, equipped with a comprehensive AAW suite, or something of a hybrid of a DDG and an LPD with a well deck so it can act as mothership. It could operate far enough offshore such that the enemy would have to deploy its air force to counter it, where the AAW suite or carrier cover would then come into play. Amongst other things, the unmanned vessels could even eat missiles to protect the actual crewed vessels, and the crewed vessels can destroy the unmanned vessels either through armaments or command directives if a hacking threat is imminent.


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travestytrav25
Post subject: Re: Fleshing out an Unmanned Warship conceptPosted: August 16th, 2012, 4:52 pm
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The never-built BMT fast mothership concept would be a good platform for that. It could carry unmanned FACs that could get closer to shore or attack fleets leaving the mothership and other manned vessels at a comfortable stand-off distance.


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