Shipbucket

Hmmm...one question, though: do you have documentation to support that version of the Star n' Bars naval ensign (in reality the war flag of the Confederacy)? This version was approved only in March, 1865, barely a month prior to Appomattox and Bennett House. There were several unofficial versions that were used, including variations on this flag. But this one was not used till at the very end - if ever during the war. There are no documented instances of it being hoisted before ca. 1868! And then it was Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest and his Klan which was responsible.

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My Avatar:Петр Алексеевич Безобразов (Petr Alekseevich Bezobrazov), Вице-адмирал , царская ВМФ России(1845-1906) - I sign my drawings as Ari Saarinen

Updated with the correct flag... They really should have made up their mind so as not to confuse later generations!

Bezobrazov,

It wasn't the war flag of the Confederacy; the rectangular 'Southern Cross' was the flag of the Army of Tennessee. The 'Stars and Bars' name is properly attributed to the First National Flag, featuring three 'bars' and 7-15 'stars.' Also, you are incorrect that the KKK were the first to use it, as the C.S.S. Shenandoah's flag followed this pattern, with some minor variation.


The square version of the flag was used by the Army of Northern Virginia and then several other eastern army groups... but never by the entire Confederacy, or even a majority of it. Locally designed flags were plentiful and often had little or nothing to do with the ANV flag.

This site (http://www.confederate-flags.org/) will be indispensable to someone looking to understand the rather complicated history of the battle flags of the Confederate armies... and there are several devoted to some of the equally confusing banners used by the Union.

I accidentally used the "Third National Flag!" at first! This would only be correct on the Jackson, I think.

I believe Carthaginian is correct in that the Shenandoah also flew the third national on their circumnavigation and arctic raids against the US whaling fleet. I believe they were also the only CSN vessel to visit Australia.

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"Anybody remotely interesting is mad in some way." - The Seventh Doctor

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USN components, camouflage colors, & reference links (World War II only)

Yes, I'm the first to admit that the issue of the flags of the Confederacy is complicated to say the least. One question on the Shenandoah though, how could Capt Waddell know the decision of March,1865? He wasn't spoken to by any friendly vessels nor did he have access to cable either to the 'Kirby Kingdom' or, most crucially, to Richmond, to receive such information. If my memory serves be right, he took the ship out in mid-1864 for her final cruise, and at that time the flag issue was still hotly debated in Congress. I do stand corrected, in sofar as my statement of the last flag being a warflag. I should've said national flag, of course. The naval ensign was supposed to look a little different. So, I'm maintaining my statement that the Grand Wizard Bedford Forrest was the first with access to this flag, simply since the South at the end of the war lacked the very raw material from which to sow flags - except cotton, and that was being destroyed in equal measure by both Yankees and Johnny Rebs!

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My Avatar:Петр Алексеевич Безобразов (Petr Alekseevich Bezobrazov), Вице-адмирал , царская ВМФ России(1845-1906) - I sign my drawings as Ari Saarinen

D'OH
I believe you may be correct on that. I was looking at an 1890's era print of the shenandoah ATM, and it apparently took some creative license as far as the flags go. When I went out to the book shelves and got my book on the Shenandoah, the photos in their did indeed show the Stainless Banner as that being flown. My bad.

Although, IIRC, isn't that one of the reasons they added the red bar to the fly, is because of CSN complaints that the Stainless, when flown at sea, looked like a plain white flag which the CS officers equated to a sign of surrender? (Just going off memory here...)

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"Anybody remotely interesting is mad in some way." - The Seventh Doctor

Zephyr, I'm not going to contradict you on that. It may well have been a reason why they resolved to create a more easily recognizable flag. In fact this was a perennial problem for the French navy of the l'Ancien Regime; it ensign was white - pure and simple, since that color also happened to be the "house" color of the Bourbon dynasty. That's why many ships adopted a similar system as the Royal Navy's; flag sheets in different colors depending on seniority, in this case though, a plain colored drapery strewn (often) with the Fleurs-de-Lis!

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My Avatar:Петр Алексеевич Безобразов (Petr Alekseevich Bezobrazov), Вице-адмирал , царская ВМФ России(1845-1906) - I sign my drawings as Ari Saarinen

otherwise, btw, I love this thread!

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My Avatar:Петр Алексеевич Безобразов (Petr Alekseevich Bezobrazov), Вице-адмирал , царская ВМФ России(1845-1906) - I sign my drawings as Ari Saarinen