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TimothyC
Post subject: Re: Kriegsmarine 1946, second approachPosted: November 6th, 2011, 7:45 pm
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Ok people, if you want to continue this tangent do so here - and no flaming. I'm just as guilty of going off topic so my posts that were a part of this came along for the ride too.

-TimothyC

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Ashley
Post subject: Re: Split from Kriegsmarine 1946, second approachPosted: November 9th, 2011, 3:09 pm
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to counter the B36-idea: yes well, you can counter a floating monster with a flying one. You remember the 'Wasserfall'-missile? The mother of all SAMs. Give her a booster and a combined radar/infrared-targeting system plus a magnetic field detector (and yes all those thingis were available!) and you have the projected production missile with 48km range and ecm-hardening. Goodbye B-36.
Another thing: the Yamato was equipped with 18" guns. Nice fact is, they had aa-ammo for them! An air-mine, producing an enormous cload of shrapnell. You wont need much of that ammo, because you will fire 2-3 rounds at an attacking airwing until the big guns are useless. But the effect should be awesome.
We're talking about unleashed german engineers, not slowed down by bombardments day and night. With no economical shotcomings. You do not have to like that possible way of history (I do neither, the things are surely better the actual way), but the possibilities are fascinating, maybe a bit scary, aren't they?
Btw, thanks for splitting, my AU allways caused political or hypothetical discussions. This is now the right place for these discussions.

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Rhade
Post subject: Re: Split from Kriegsmarine 1946, second approachPosted: November 9th, 2011, 3:30 pm
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Ashley wrote:
Another thing: the Yamato was equipped with 18" guns. Nice fact is, they had aa-ammo for them! An air-mine, producing an enormous cload of shrapnell. You wont need much of that ammo, because you will fire 2-3 rounds at an attacking airwing until the big guns are useless. But the effect should be awesome.
In theory, yes awesome. In practice ... useless. Yamato did fire that AA from main guns, and they do sh**. There is only one thing you need to protect this behemot, air cover. Lots of lots of fighters intercepting enemy attack, becaus if they start attacking your ship and you have only you own AA guns, you dead.

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TimothyC
Post subject: Re: Split from Kriegsmarine 1946, second approachPosted: November 9th, 2011, 4:07 pm
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Ashley wrote:
to counter the B36-idea: yes well, you can counter a floating monster with a flying one. You remember the 'Wasserfall'-missile? The mother of all SAMs. Give her a booster and a combined radar/infrared-targeting system plus a magnetic field detector (and yes all those thingis were available!) and you have the projected production missile with 48km range and ecm-hardening. Goodbye B-36.
Wasserfall sucks. You quote a 48 km range, but what would the range be at 15 km up and in an ECM heavy environment. I assure you it isn't 48 km, and it could even by 0 km, as the missiles stand a chance of not being able to reach the altitudes that the bombers fly at.

The other point is, it may be easier to just blow this thing up in port before it sorties.

Your comment that Wasserfall was the "mother of all SAMs" is typical German propaganda. The US was working on SAM systems to counter the growing kamikaze threat in 1945, and while our preferred method was still to blow the plane up on the ground or to shoot them down in air to air combat, we were working on the systems that became Talos.

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Ashley
Post subject: Re: Split from Kriegsmarine 1946, second approachPosted: November 9th, 2011, 5:45 pm
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TimothyC wrote:
Ashley wrote:
to counter the B36-idea: yes well, you can counter a floating monster with a flying one. You remember the 'Wasserfall'-missile? The mother of all SAMs. Give her a booster and a combined radar/infrared-targeting system plus a magnetic field detector (and yes all those thingis were available!) and you have the projected production missile with 48km range and ecm-hardening. Goodbye B-36.
Wasserfall sucks. You quote a 48 km range, but what would the range be at 15 km up and in an ECM heavy environment. I assure you it isn't 48 km, and it could even by 0 km, as the missiles stand a chance of not being able to reach the altitudes that the bombers fly at.

The other point is, it may be easier to just blow this thing up in port before it sorties.

Your comment that Wasserfall was the "mother of all SAMs" is typical German propaganda. The US was working on SAM systems to counter the growing kamikaze threat in 1945, and while our preferred method was still to blow the plane up on the ground or to shoot them down in air to air combat, we were working on the systems that became Talos.
It is unquestionable, that a thing of that size can't be missed. And of course, laying in a harbor, it will take anything from anywhere. That is one reason for such much oversized ships beeing built. But that is not the point.

I don't want recall dumb propaganda info. But it is fact, the 'Wasserfall' was the first selfguiding SAM that worked. Sure, just a few prototypes were built. Hastily, with nearly no resources left. But it worked. And it was only to be the first of long line of descendants. So please, do not make the prototype bad. Or is anybody able to dance a musical with 6 month?

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TimothyC
Post subject: Re: Split from Kriegsmarine 1946, second approachPosted: November 9th, 2011, 10:45 pm
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Ashley wrote:
I don't want recall dumb propaganda info. But it is fact, the 'Wasserfall' was the first selfguiding SAM that worked. Sure, just a few prototypes were built. Hastily, with nearly no resources left. But it worked. And it was only to be the first of long line of descendants. So please, do not make the prototype bad. Or is anybody able to dance a musical with 6 month?
Wasserfall was command guided, which means it can be jammed.

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erik_t
Post subject: Re: Split from Kriegsmarine 1946, second approachPosted: November 10th, 2011, 12:06 am
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SA-2 failed to hit B-52s on a regular basis over Vietnam. This is a system several generations and a dozen years more modern, against targets flying lower, straight and level.

The idea that simply stating the name 'Wasserfall' is the end of the discussion with regards to air attack is utterly hilarious. Hell, carpet the thing with HVARs from a thousand Corsairs first, if you want to. You can afford fifty times that number with the money spent on such an amusing but utterly impractical and profoundly vulnerable monstrosity.


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ALVAMA
Post subject: Re: Kriegsmarine 1946, second approachPosted: November 10th, 2011, 10:20 pm
heuhen wrote:
mount a Norwegian Viking on a rocket, or just take a Dutchman! trolololol! sorry.
:D


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