A Danish AU

I finally gave in.
After two years of being an active bucketeer I've finally gone ahead and begun an actual structured AU.
Shocking, I know.

Anyway, the idea has been kicking around in my head for a long time. Actually, I've had several different ones some more ambitious than others (Think Second Kalmar Union) and some were unambitious ones (Industrialized Falklands)
This AU falls somewhere in the middle. Point of departure is sometime before the Napoleonic wars. The first Battle of Copenhagen does happen and the Royal Navy still obtains its goal, but due to a number of factors (Better training mainly) the battle results in a draw rather than the narrow victory it was IOTL.
Instead of laying up the fleet and hoping that our neutrality will protect us like it was done IOTL, Denmark pursues a policy of armed neutrality. This means that, amongst other things, the navy doesn't gets laid up which in turn neatly prevents the Second Battle of Copenhagen in 1807. As an upshot of this the Danish possessions around the world remains in Danish hands.

I'm still trying to figure out how I'll deal with Napoleon. I may have him invade Jutland but being unable to cross the sounds.
I'm still working on what happens during the rest of 19th century, though the general theme will be much the same but slightly better outcome.
I'm not really sure when and how, but I'm going to give Denmark a couple of small colonies in Asia and I'll probably expand the ones in the Carribean a bit. How and when is still unclear.

WWI is much like OTL, though there is a couple of incident's I'll rewrite.
Denmark retains the Virgin Isles
Denmark gets invaded just like in OTL, though this time we fight back and the Government and the Royal Family manages to escape to Britain. Quite a few naval units and army personnel escapes to Britain where they form the Free Danes.

And that's as far as I've gotten yet. It's all pretty vague right now but I'll get it beaten into shape as I move along.
My main inspiration for this AU is the 1952 Lisbon agreement. In it Denmark agreed to more than double its navy. It never happened, though the navy was bolstered somewhat, but in this AU it will happen. I've tried to figure out what kind of mentality it would take to build and retain such a navy over ~150 years and one of the conclusions I've reached is that it would require a willingness to take risks, not so much in battle, but in procurement. In reality the RDN has always been very cautious when it came to acquiring new equipment and internal R&D has been very limited. In this AU this have changed, resulting in earlier adoptions of much equipment.

But anyway, let's get on to the drawings
My first couple of ships will be from the inter war period and largely focussed on the colonial duties.

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This ship a Tender/Station ship. She was launched in 1927 and her main job is to act as a support base for a squadron of torpedo boats and support the Frigate that also is assigned to the station.
Main propulsion is two B&W DM 6250 single acting four-stroke diesels turning two screws through reduction gears. Main armament consists of one twin 120mm based on the Swedish 12cm/50 Model 1924. Secondary armament is made up of one Twin and one single 75mm PK L/55 M1923 gun. The single version were a fairly common gun in the RDN either as the M1915 surface only version or the later M1923 AA version. The twin mount was, as far as I'm aware, never used but it appears on a lot of concept sketches from the time.
Light AA is provided by four twin 8mm Madsen machineguns.
As you can see on the top-view she is capable of carrying mines, about 100 or so. Theoretically she could carry at least as many in her hold but the deployment time would most likely make it pointless.
By using the quarters normally reserved for torpedo boat crews she can carry around 40 troops and by converting a number of other areas to bunk rooms up to 120 for short durations.
As you can see I've set an area aside for aircraft maintenance. The idea is that she can carry, depending on what aircraft I end up with, up to four small floatplanes, though one or two is bar far the most likely. These would be stowed disassembled in the tunnels that run through the superstructure and only assembled once it's on station. Since she carries no catapults they will obviously be launched from the sea. Once on station one aircraft would be kept ready on the fore-deck or in the air. The aircraft are for scouting only. Unfortunately, I'm not sure which aircraft I should use, so I'd like some suggestions there. The maintenance area can be extended, but preferably not too much.
Please note that it doesn't have to fit inside the maintenance area with its wings on. It's intended only as a way to make it possible to work on the engine and such while it's under cover. Any work that requires the aircraft to be fully assembled will be done on deck as weather permits. Also, it doesn't matter if it ends up not working very well. As I said earlier the RDN is willing to take some risks and this is one of them. If it doesn't work out they'll just convert the space to other uses.
Any other suggestions/comments/rotten tomatoes are of course also welcome, both about the drawings and about the story.

The PG1938 from Nightwatchs thread will also make an appearance, but I've yet to work out a decent backstory.

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Source Materiel is always welcome.

I forgot to ad the SS report.

Code: Select all

Henrik Gerner, Denmark Submarine Tender laid down 1927

Displacement:
	904 t light; 945 t standard; 1.235 t normal; 1.466 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
	(213,27 ft / 210,06 ft) x 32,81 ft x (9,84 / 11,39 ft)
	(65,00 m / 64,03 m) x 10,00 m  x (3,00 / 3,47 m)

Armament:
      2 - 4,72" / 120 mm 45,0 cal guns - 53,17lbs / 24,12kg shells, 200 per gun
	  Breech loading guns in deck mount, 1924 Model
	  1 x Twin mount on centreline, aft deck aft
      2 - 2,95" / 75,0 mm 75,0 cal guns - 14,56lbs / 6,61kg shells, 300 per gun
	  Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1915 Model
	  2 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
		2 raised mounts
      8 - 0,31" / 7,9 mm 75,0 cal guns - 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 4.000 per gun
	  Machine guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model
	  4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
		4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 136 lbs / 62 kg
      Mines
      2 - 983,26 lbs / 446,00 kg mines + 100 reloads - 44,774 t total
	in Above water - Stern racks/rails

Armour:
   - Gun armour:	Face (max)	Other gunhouse (avg)	Barbette/hoist (max)
	Main:	0,39" / 10 mm	      -			      -

Machinery:
	Diesel Internal combustion motors, 
	Geared drive, 2 shafts, 3.133 shp / 2.337 Kw = 17,00 kts
	Range 12.000nm at 12,00 kts
	Bunker at max displacement = 520 tons

Complement:
	103 - 135

Cost:
	£0,193 million / $0,773 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
	Armament: 80 tons, 6,4 %
	   - Guns: 24 tons, 1,9 %
	   - Weapons: 56 tons, 4,5 %
	Armour: 1 tons, 0,1 %
	   - Armament: 1 tons, 0,1 %
	Machinery: 99 tons, 8,0 %
	Hull, fittings & equipment: 424 tons, 34,4 %
	Fuel, ammunition & stores: 331 tons, 26,8 %
	Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 24,3 %
	   - Hull below water: 100 tons
	   - Hull above water: 100 tons
	   - On freeboard deck: 100 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
	Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
	  3.072 lbs / 1.393 Kg = 58,3 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 1,5 torpedoes
	Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,30
	Metacentric height 1,5 ft / 0,5 m
	Roll period: 11,3 seconds
	Steadiness	- As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 81 %
			- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,15
	Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,39

Hull form characteristics:
	Hull has raised forecastle,
	  a normal bow and a round stern
	Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,637 / 0,653
	Length to Beam Ratio: 6,40 : 1
	'Natural speed' for length: 14,49 kts
	Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
	Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
	Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 6,00 degrees
	Stern overhang: 1,31 ft / 0,40 m
	Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
				Fore end,	 Aft end
	   - Forecastle:	13,66 %,  18,04 ft / 5,50 m,  16,40 ft / 5,00 m
	   - Forward deck:	31,60 %,  11,48 ft / 3,50 m,  10,50 ft / 3,20 m
	   - Aft deck:	42,85 %,  10,50 ft / 3,20 m,  9,19 ft / 2,80 m
	   - Quarter deck:	11,89 %,  9,19 ft / 2,80 m,  9,84 ft / 3,00 m
	   - Average freeboard:		11,15 ft / 3,40 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
	Space	- Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 51,4 %
		- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 99,7 %
	Waterplane Area: 5.217 Square feet or 485 Square metres
	Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 216 %
	Structure weight / hull surface area: 55 lbs/sq ft or 268 Kg/sq metre
	Hull strength (Relative):
		- Cross-sectional: 1,17
		- Longitudinal: 3,07
		- Overall: 1,29
	Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
	Adequate accommodation and workspace room
	Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
	Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Welcome to the crazy world of AUs!

Actually this seems a very well thought out AU and certainly an interesting one, I don't think we've had any Danish AUs before.
As to the WIP drawing.... awesome deck plans, methinks you might start a craze with that idea. This looks very much like one of those interwar reference book/ builders plans type layouts. A nice little ship with some useful multipurpose roles.
I'm not sure on the usefulness of a twin 4.7in aft, I would have perferred one single fore and aft myself. In the descrpiton you say the ship has three 75mm guns but in SS report only shows two singles. I don't really want to get into the full why and where-fores of Springsharp but the sim looks pretty good but you've got 1.29 overall hull strength, normally you can go down to 1.00 and either save yourself some tonnage or use it for other purposes like fuel or more odds and ends. You seem to have more than enough misc weight anyway.

As for the aircraft, perhaps an RDN licence-built Hawker Osprey?

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Interwar RN Capital Ships
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Hood wrote:

Welcome to the crazy world of AUs!

Actually this seems a very well thought out AU and certainly an interesting one, I don't think we've had any Danish AUs before.

Thank you. I don't think there's been a Danish AU before, in fact I do believe I'm the first Danish member of SB.

Hood wrote:

As to the WIP drawing.... awesome deck plans, methinks you might start a craze with that idea. This looks very much like one of those interwar reference book/ builders plans type layouts. A nice little ship with some useful multipurpose roles.

Well, just like the PG1936 I needed to figure out if everything would fit and a sideview simply isn't enough to do so. Then I needed to show the hangar arrangement and that was easiest to do with a deck plan. Of course once I'd drawm that bit I ended up with a ton of open space and that just seemed wrong so I went ahead and started filling in some of the basic functions. The reason why it looks so much like on of those plans is because I've used one as a base. This one to be exact.

Hood wrote:

I'm not sure on the usefulness of a twin 4.7in aft, I would have perferred one single fore and aft myself.

So would I, but since it isn't a DP gun (The the lack of an effective DP gun is going to be is going to be a continuous headache for the RDN in this AU) I had the choice between all-round AA cover or all-round surface cover. I tried a couple of layouts with the 75mm superfiring over the 12cm gun and while the SpringSharp report worked out fine, I couldn't make it work as a drawing. The closest I came had the 75mm on top of the bridge, but then I had to move the range finder onto a small tower further aft. This in turn displaced the searchlight and forced me to heighten the funnel and move it further aft to keep the rangefinder from being smothered in exhaust. It also impacted the stern heavily and the knock-on effect in the machinery spaces doesn't bear thinking about.

Hood wrote:

In the descrpiton you say the ship has three 75mm guns but in SS report only shows two singles.

I'll fix that immediately

Hood wrote:

I don't really want to get into the full why and where-fores of Springsharp but the sim looks pretty good but you've got 1.29 overall hull strength, normally you can go down to 1.00 and either save yourself some tonnage or use it for other purposes like fuel or more odds and ends. You seem to have more than enough misc weight anyway.

I'll be honest and say that I don't which parameters I'd need to tweak to lower it. The misc loads represents all the stores, ammunition and extra gear needed to support a full squadron of torpedo boats and one or two floatplanes. As far as I'm aware misc. weights are the only way of showing this in SS.

Hood wrote:

As for the aircraft, perhaps an RDN licence-built Hawker Osprey?

It's a bit late, though it would probably do fine as a replacement later in her career. Preferably the aircraft should be flying in 1925 since the RDN will introduce a new sea-plane trainer then.

I like the little ship- she seems handy, has plenty of reserve weight, and a very reasonable draft to allow her to use unimproved harbors.

I agree that the twin mount aft limits the usefulness of the weapons... but I see the necessity of the open foredeck as well. If this ship is to operate aircraft or to serve as a tender, then either the foredeck or the aft/quarterdeck must be left open for cranes and sundry transfer equipment. The high raised fo'c'sle would limit the field of fire for the main weapons, but is not such an issue when considering transfer of equipment- thus, the main guns must be placed aft to have the greatest field of fire.

The extremely 'overbuilt' nature of the ship might simply be 'handwaviumed' away as the fact that the ship is built to merchant standards, and thus necessitates a greater inherent strength than a more strongly built ship of equal size.

The addition of the twin mount AA guns forward will do little to affect your ship with such excellent reserve strength... go ahead and add that gun, Mister!

As for aircraft, well, it would depend upon your primary trading partners. Any floatplane from Germany, France, Britain or the United States would suffice- unless your AU Denmark has domestic producers... in which case, BUY LOCAL!

The Danish aviation industry will look pretty much like it did IOTL, though it too will be boosted by an enlarged military and the resulting greater needs. At the time Denmark had one private aircraft company, Skandinavisk Aero Industri (Also known as Kramme og Zeuhte) IOTL they were fairly successful in the General Aviation and aerial ambulance market. Their aircraft were used extensively by the Army as trainers, liaison and artillery spotter planes. Unfortunately they didn't enter the market until 1937 and none of their aircraft were even remotely suitable for naval use.
The Army and Navy however did build their own planes, in fact I believe they build most of their prewar planes themselves. This was done at the Hærens central værksted (Army Central Workshop) and Orlogsværftet (Navy Yard) with the army building the majority of the aircraft for both services. Most of the aircraft they produced were licensed, though they did do some designwork themselves as well. The navy worked on a couple of interesting projects in the late thirties, both of which have been covered by me in the Planebucket. IOTL the army and the navy used aircraft from the UK, Germany, USA and they were very interested in one from Czechoslovakia.

Anyway, the conclusion to this rather long and wordy post is that the aircraft most likely will be a licensed version of an existing aircraft from one of the above countries.

You can still use the Hawker Dantorp I've made for you so long ago... or so it seems. Anyway this is a lovely little ship, which to me looks more like a small coaster converted to naval service, than a true naval unit.

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[ img ]

Thank you Kim for the crest

"Never fear to try on something new. Remember that the Titanic was built by professionals, and the Ark by an amateur"

Progress have been made!
[ img ]

Lots and lots of details have been added. The the internal arrangement of the fo'c'sle will have to be changed since the chain locker isn't were the chain comes through the deck right now.
I think I'll go for a more traditional open arrangement.

Novice wrote:

Unfortunately the Dantorp is much too large. Right now I'm looking at something like a modified DH Cirrus or Gypsy Moth.
And it does look a lot like a merchantman, but then, so did the ship it's based on.

What about a licence-built Brandenburg monoplane seaplane? W.33 I think is the one the Finns built post-war.

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Hood's Worklist
English Electric Canberra FD
Interwar RN Capital Ships
Super-Darings
Never-Were British Aircraft

I think she's just about finished. The embarked aircraft is going to be a modified Cirrus Moth.
However, just like I have, the RDN is going to learn how hard it is to carry an aircraft at sea and they'll decide that it isn't practical to do on her.

Shipbucket

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