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Andorianus
Post subject: Re: Advanced Battleship (BBN)Posted: June 20th, 2011, 9:09 am
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I won't explain what every single one does, since I'd be here all night.
Actually that was my question. It seems like you have multiple different types of missiles for each role; which is useless, considering they both do the same.
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Really it comes down to personal preference. I had some issues that I felt required a larger round and greater range than a 30mm gun could provide, so I supplemented the 30mm guns with 57mm guns. Which also double as CIGS when necessary.
Still, the number seems insanely high. You have more main guns then an Iowa, you have more secondaries then ten frigates! Don't you think that is a tad overdoing it, if it is just for such a small role?

As for the other point, that is where my knowledge fails me.

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Rodondo
Post subject: Re: Advanced Battleship (BBN)Posted: June 20th, 2011, 11:47 am
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Just a note, if a large wave (say 15m+) catches the bow head on, that wave is going to screw with your flotation forwards as you have less buoyancy as you go up on the stem. This issue I found when trying to paddle a sealed kayak upside down( dont' ask why, it was a long day), the more it goes down by the stem, the harder it has to work to achieve its original position. Unless you install a turtle/whale back in the place of the forward VLSs you are going to have seas shipping onto your deck and constantly being awash. If you do recover from the wave, you will lose speed and wallow about.

The Seajet was tested on a lake, god only knows what she would behave like in a cyclone with a loaded bow.

Also Quad turrets mounting guns that size are simply too big for the hulls width, (for the hull as is the number of propelling. 4 would do well as most same sized battleships had) Barbettes have another purpose, to stop shells and possibly missiles from detonating the magazine or detonate under the turret and knock out the workings.

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TimothyC
Post subject: Re: Advanced Battleship (BBN)Posted: June 20th, 2011, 2:11 pm
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CATZ wrote:
Use a dome shape, utilizing continuous curvature (utilizing curved surfaces with a constantly changing radii). And try to find a way to shroud, shield or retract the guns (A mind boggling proposition to be sure, due to the size of the guns). Regardless of whether the guns can be partially concealed, a dome turret could reduce RCS to a point. Whether or not it's greater than a box turret would be pointlessly debatable. I just thought I'd like to play with the concept a little in this design, and use domes instead of a more conventional AGS like turret design.

As for how many guns can fit in there, I just said 4, since that seemed feasible for a 20m turret. However it could also be 3. It doesn't really matter to me. However, I'm not sure I agree with you about there being 3 at best, since I was using the KGV's quad turrets as examples, scaled up slightly to account for the bigger guns which are equipped.

:lol:

Tell me, did you pass geometry in highschool? Because it's rather painfully look like you didn't internalize it. Here, I'll show you:

[ img ]

This is why you didn't draw quads.

Also - guess the one shape that will always generate a 0° incident angle no mater how you look at it?

That's right a sphere. Your turrets are going to be nice and visible from airborne radars.
CATZ wrote:
Saturation attacks are considered to be a weakness of AEGIS like systems.
:lol:

The fastest way to saturate an AEGIS ship is to shoot it dry, which you would understand if you bothered to learn about the systems in question.
acelanceloet wrote:
one thing again: your spyski's....... the SPY-1 is only an search radar. so you can't do guidance with it, you'll need other systems for that, for example directors or an APAR type radar.
Uhm, Ace, you can if you know what you're doing (it involves doing some tricks with the radar beam).
CATZ wrote:
Doesn't really matter, since so far both the DD(X) and this BBG are both paper designs. It doesn't really matter if the've tested them for that yet, since they designed the DD(X) that way in the first place. Professional ship engineers would probably anticipate such a problem, if it was a problem. The fact that the ship is designed the way it is, tells me that it isn't.
:lol:

I've heard the following by people in the know - "Zumwalt is what you get when you have a ship designed by electrical engineers, not marine engineers".

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CATZ
Post subject: Re: Advanced Battleship (BBN)Posted: June 21st, 2011, 1:33 am
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acelanceloet wrote:
one thing again: your spyski's....... the SPY-1 is only an search radar. so you can't do guidance with it, you'll need other systems for that, for example directors or an APAR type radar.
If it was exactly like the SPY-1 that would be true. However since it's a fictional system, it's most likely possible you could integrate that function in to them. Even though I use SPY-1's for both the larger and smaller arrays, the smaller arrays are intended to be a different but similar system to the larger SPYski system, so to speak. While the SPY-1 is an PESA type radar, I was undecided as to whether the SPYski would be AESA based or not. It's also possible that the smaller arrays could be AESA and the larger ones could be AESA. I haven't decided yet.

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Last edited by CATZ on June 21st, 2011, 2:04 am, edited 2 times in total.

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CATZ
Post subject: Re: Advanced Battleship (BBN)Posted: June 21st, 2011, 1:37 am
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Rodondo wrote:
Just a note, if a large wave (say 15m+) catches the bow head on, that wave is going to screw with your flotation forwards as you have less buoyancy as you go up on the stem. This issue I found when trying to paddle a sealed kayak upside down( dont' ask why, it was a long day), the more it goes down by the stem, the harder it has to work to achieve its original position. Unless you install a turtle/whale back in the place of the forward VLSs you are going to have seas shipping onto your deck and constantly being awash. If you do recover from the wave, you will lose speed and wallow about.

The Seajet was tested on a lake, god only knows what she would behave like in a cyclone with a loaded bow.

Also Quad turrets mounting guns that size are simply too big for the hulls width, (for the hull as is the number of propelling. 4 would do well as most same sized battleships had) Barbettes have another purpose, to stop shells and possibly missiles from detonating the magazine or detonate under the turret and knock out the workings.
Yes, but that lake is also used to test other ships, as well as submarines, and is over 1000 ft deep in places. So aside from Tim's rather snide remarks, the USN seems to think it's a pretty good place to test ships.

As for the wave piercing bow, it has less buoyancy than a conventional bow, and will rise less quickly than a conventional bow when it hits a wave. Smaller waves will be "sliced" through, like a knife. Larger waves will still cause the ship to go up and over to some degree, though not as much as a conventional bow. A conventional bow on a ship will cause the ship to jostle up and down more than a wave piercing bow would.

As for the hulls width? I never stated what it was that I remember, thus am wondering what you're basing that statement on? I mean, sure, I know what it is, since I used it for the Springsharp design. But I haven't stated it to my knowledge openly on the forum, since the BBN is still a WIP.

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Last edited by CATZ on June 21st, 2011, 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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CATZ
Post subject: Re: Advanced Battleship (BBN)Posted: June 21st, 2011, 2:00 am
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Quote:

The fastest way to saturate an AEGIS ship is to shoot it dry, which you would understand if you bothered to learn about the systems in question.

You're just supporting my reasoning, really.

Besides, I based my design off of my experiences in playing Harpoon 3 & Dangerous Waters, along with what I've learned in just reading on the subjects. Harpoon 3 is actually used by some militaries for training purposes, it's so accurate. So really, I'd say I probably have better experience than you in that regard.

So really I'd say that you're the one in need of learning. Perhaps you should spend more time broadening your experiences on the subject. It's somewhat obvious that being an engineer in training really hasn't made you an expert on naval warfare. I'm not impressed. Sorry Tim.


Quote:
I've heard the following by people in the know - "Zumwalt is what you get when you have a ship designed by electrical engineers, not marine engineers"
Yet the USN is still moving forward with it. :: yawn ::

We'll see how roughly they are unseated when the DDG-1000 is launched. Until then, by all means, you are free to speculate. Since that's all you can really do at this point. I'll take a 1/4th scale model over speculation, even if it is tested on a lake. lolz.

And btw Tim, the whole USN is more in the know than you, or anyone you know. I think I'll take their word over you or Stuart Slade. But what we have here is far superior than just a word. They're actually spending billions to produce the ship. Actions...speak louder than words, Tim.
Quote:
This is why you didn't draw quads.

Actually those spheres are modified Yamato turrets from the parts sheet. I never claimed to be some excellent artist when it comes to ship-bucket ships. If you think you can do better, than do so, and I'll update it with the updated turrets.

So really you counted all those pixels for nothing.

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Last edited by CATZ on June 21st, 2011, 6:54 am, edited 8 times in total.

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CATZ
Post subject: Re: Advanced Battleship (BBN)Posted: June 21st, 2011, 2:09 am
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Still, the number seems insanely high. You have more main guns then an Iowa, you have more secondaries then ten frigates! Don't you think that is a tad overdoing it, if it is just for such a small role?
You have to remember that it's a 100,000 t ship, on par in size with the Nimitz & Enterprise class carriers that the USN fields. As for secondaries, it has 16. Assuming a modern frigate has 1 gun, I'd say it has more secondaries than sixteen frigates. :-p

As for the 57mm tertiary guns & CIWS, I based the design off my experiences playing Dangerous Waters & Harpoon 3.
Quote:
Really it comes down to personal preference. I had some issues that I felt required a larger round and greater range than a 30mm gun could provide, so I supplemented the 30mm guns with 57mm guns. Which also double as CIGS when necessary.
Right, that's why I said that you wouldn't carry both. Seeing them on the ship drawing merely indicates that it has the capability to fire both, so to speak, when the proper mission modules are installed.

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CATZ
Post subject: Re: Advanced Battleship (BBN)Posted: June 21st, 2011, 6:54 am
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Also - guess the one shape that will always generate a 0° incident angle no mater how you look at it?
Well Tim,

You're wrong.


[ img ]

[ img ]

[ img ]

[ img ]

[ img ]

[ img ]

[ img ]

Of course a dome produces less backscattered creeping wave, because the signal hits the deck when moving vertically, upon reaching the opposite side of the sphere. Of course they can still creep around to the right or left.

And of course a tilted surface can direct the radar away, possibly returning zero waves to the point of origin. But you have to have said surfaced aligned correctly. With a dome, it doesn't matter which direction the ship or turret is facing, or where the point of origin is, the signal will be reduced. Furthermore, if other mitigation measures are taken, such as radar absorbent materials for instance, the RCS can be further reduced.

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Last edited by CATZ on June 21st, 2011, 7:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Carnac
Post subject: Re: Advanced Battleship (BBN)Posted: June 21st, 2011, 7:18 am
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Other then blatant impossibilities in the design, the concept is flawed. In order to save money on shore bombardment, you're building a multi-billion dollar ship. Which also happens to fill exactly no other roles. Meaning if your ship bombards ten beaches in it's lifetime, you'd have spent over a billion dollars per bombarding mission.


Now compare that to the cost of a few tomahawks.

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Rodondo
Post subject: Re: Advanced Battleship (BBN)Posted: June 21st, 2011, 7:25 am
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Well it depends on how perfectly spherical your turrets are, a hard feat really to do even today.

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There's no such thing as "nothing left to draw" If you can down 10 pints and draw, you're doing alright by my standards


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