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BB1987
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: RebootPosted: June 11th, 2016, 3:54 pm
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Nice looking cruiser and great work as usual. Keep it up!

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eswube
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: RebootPosted: June 11th, 2016, 8:05 pm
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Another fabulous addition! :)


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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: RebootPosted: June 11th, 2016, 11:11 pm
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Finally, a decent looking cruiser after your last two efforts, which were 'pretty' drawings, but pretty awful ship designs. I can understand you wanting to try out different designs, and you can manage that without getting yourself too far off track. "The cruiser was due for rebuilding and the three yards at which the work could be carried out each put in a design proposal to the Admiralty" blah blah blah. You have your excuse to design some alternative drawings and you are then able to take the 'winner' through your evolution process.

The latest cruiser looks a good design, I have no problem with a light cruiser armed with 5.5", I have done several myself and the Japanese did more than both of us put together. Your cruiser at 6,000 tons is already built to the limit of the topweight the design can handle. When you build to the limit of a design, any future additions make the ship more 'tender' and as the Japanese found out, susceptible to strange submarine type behaviour. Adding the catapult and other fittings pre-war, all four should have been bulged during that 1938-1940 time period when the aircraft were added. From the damage that these ships sustained (un-bulged) - none would have survived - oops, capsized and sunk would be a recurring theme.

"Armour was quite comprehensive, with a 60mm belt covering a large portion of the hull and a complete armoured deck of 20mm, giving a large immunity zone against 152mm shells" - at 30,000 yards range for 152mm?- or put it another way, the only way your armour scheme would be safe is if it was outside the range of the 6" guns. The phrase 'wet cardboard' comes to mind for your armour scheme. It is good enough to keep out 3"-4" shells. Anything bigger would probably go straight through. To armour yourself against 6" shells, 3" side and 1 1/2" deck is the minimum.

Why you would bother putting anti-submarine fittings on the surviving ships (and the earlier cruisers) is beyond me. All of the reading I have done has made it clear that cruisers just did not have the agility to be useful anti-submarine units. You might have given the distinction to one of the earlier cruisers to be a submarine killer, but it would be more likely the submarine would sink the cruiser.

The four ships you have here would have made very good destroyer leaders, but were very weak when confronted by full sized cruisers in a squadron battle.

The drawings themselves are wonderful, the attention to detail is second to none. Your drawings would be my favourites anytime I am looking for ships to kitbash. I would rather give you some honest feedback than just the 'how wonderful' that you might get otherwise.


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Hood
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: RebootPosted: June 12th, 2016, 9:23 am
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What more can I say other than, excellently drawn beautiful cruisers!

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Garlicdesign
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: RebootPosted: June 12th, 2016, 9:45 am
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Hi - and thanks - everyone!

@Krakatoa: Caught me on the armour scheme, it's actually 40mm deck amidships and 20mm on the ends. Happens when you first write the text, then do the springsharp calculation and find out that more is possible than you thought... and then forget to edit. My mistake, for which I deserved a knock on the head.

The weight for the catapult and planes is already included in the basic design in the shape of (as in the text: 'fitted for, but not (yet) with'); I've left 200 tons for misc weights on deck, and according to Groener, Bismarck's entire aviation equipment (probably more extensive than the one used here) weighs only 83; that leaves room for some improvements to the light flak too. On the dimensions of the basic design's drawing, standard displacement is about 6.300 tons, and bulges only become necessary when 37mm quads and their truckloads of ammunition are installed.

Apart from this: the design IS compromised because of limited displacement, and they DO sink rather quickly (the first two are gone within weeks after the war started). Can't be helped. Things will improve later. ;)

Greetings
GD


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bezobrazov
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: RebootPosted: June 12th, 2016, 8:03 pm
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THe Urgharda-class are really stylish looking cruisers! My tip of the Hat to you, GD! Excellent as always!

One thing about the critique presented here: I think GD has shown himself supremely knowledgeable in what he's doing, so, actual itemized criticism should be near impossible, since we could well nigh presume that any errors and/or deficiencies are very intentional, being there to present a logical progression of development and construction.

The fact that GD:s ships often are far from perfect is what makes this AU so unbelievably realistic (besides his obvious, and enviable grasp of the Celtic language!)

Just keep your less-than-perfect ships come; after all we and the world are less than perfect, so why should the ships be?

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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: RebootPosted: June 13th, 2016, 2:27 am
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Ari,
GD does not need any help defending himself, he is quite capable of telling me to politely 'sod off' all on his own, and has done so in PM's we exchange from time to time. His ships are the only ones I actually enjoy critiquing because there is normally so little to find wrong. Yes his ships are less than perfect. But may I ask how many dumb designers you know? Probably none. There is a difference between less than perfect and complete dogs. When GD crosses the line I am quite happy to point out the error of his ways, and he should know better.

Ari, you can praise GD all you like but unfortunately like all of our AU's, Thiaria is no more realistic or believable than the others. Thiarias battles are good fun, but hardly consistent with what was happening in the real time line. There is absolutely no way that Britain can allow Thiaria to remain in the war, where it is situated. That would allow Thiaria to interdict all shipping passing through the South Atlantic. Britain could never allow that.

What is best about GD is the attention to detail of his ships, even the dogs. His ship drawings (as I said above) are second to none. There are other pixel artists in Shipbucket that are his peers but none better. (And I do not include myself in those peers.)


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Garlicdesign
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: RebootPosted: June 17th, 2016, 6:21 pm
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Hello again!

3. LNT-era cruisers

3.1. Craigmiadh-class
Plans to build Thiarian heavy cruisers were made since the mid-1920s. The first study was a wholly unarmoured ship with only six heavy guns which would conform (with some cheating) to the 6.000 ton limit; even then, the main guns were limited to 195mm caliber. Guns of this caliber were in use in the Thiarian navy since the 1900s; they had equipped a battleship, two armoured cruisers and nine coastal artillery batteries with a total of 54 guns. Their 105kg shells were considered exceptionally powerful, and there were still over 2.000 of them on storage. Although the 6.000 ton heavy cruiser project was dropped in 1928, development of an all-new 195mm gun with a sliding wedge breech for high ROF was continued anyway. When Thiaria was again admitted into the club of naval powers at London in 1930, they were granted 45.000 tons of heavy cruisers. The optimum way of utilizing this tonnage was - obviously - to build five 9.000 tonners. As most early US treaty cruisers were rather light and came out significantly below the 10.000 ton limit, construction of a reasonably balanced heavy cruiser on this tonnage seemed feasible to the Thiarians. Now the existence of a 195mm gun, which was considerably lighter than every foreign 203mm piece, proved beneficial. Within six months after signing the LNT, a 9.000-ton heavy cruiser designed around three 195mm triple turrets was presented to the naval staff for approval. The ship looked outwardly quite similar to the Urgharda-class, with a short tripod mast forward and a big one aft, two widely spaced funnels and a clipper bow. General appearance of the design reminded of contemporary Italian cruisers - essentialy a mix between the light Raimundo Montecuccoli and the heavy Bolzano - but the hulls were sturdier and beamier, and the superstructure looked more massive, with the funnels being of equal height and width. Unlike the Urghardas, the new heavy cruisers had catapults and aircraft hangars from the start, although the Thiarians did not yet have the required small scoutplanes; of the rather heavy French flying boats used instead, only one rather than the specified three were embarked, because it did not fit into the hangar. These cruisers were the first Thiarian ships with wholly domestic Thiarian machinery; unlike the Urghardas, which had all turbines amidships, the twin-shaft plant of the new heavy cruisers was arranged in two independent units of one turbine set and four boilers each, protected by transverse bulkheads and void spaces. 80.000 hp developed a design speed of 32 knots; although they were a thousand tons lighter than the British County-class ships, they were half a knot slower with the same designed hp due to the shorter hull. Designed range was 10.000 miles at 15 knots, which was necessary for raiding; they proved economical steamers in service, even with dirty hulls. Apart from their nine 195mm guns, they carried six 100mm flaks in three twin mounts aft, ten semi-automatic 37mm twins, six quad 13mm machinegun mounts and twelve 559mm torpedo tubes in four triple sets. Protection was improved compared with the light Urghardas, with an 80mm belt covering a relatively large part of the hull and a complete armoured deck of 40mm. They were reasonably safe against 152mm shells, but not against 203mm ones; this was deemed acceptable, because neither were most foreign 1920s heavy cruiser designs. All things considered, the Thiarian heavy cruiser was a well balanced warship with no outstanding features, but also no particular weaknesses (apart from the rather large tactical diameter due to relatively small rudders). The first three of five planned ships were authorized in 1931. All received names of historic battles, establishing a convention that was adhered to with all following Thiarian heavy cruisers. LT Tranacorr (named after the decisive naval battle against the Brazilians in the 1908 war) was laid down at the Abernenui naval yard, LT Craigmiadh (named for Thiaria's Jutland experience against the British and Americans in 1918, when they sank three enemy capital ships out of a fleet twice the strength of their own, losing two of theirs, and then took heel as fast as they could) was laid down at Riordan's at Cathair Riordan, and LT Trasolas (named not for a Thiarian victory, but a French one in 1782, which prevented the conquest of Thiaria by the British shortly before the end of the American war of Independence) was laid down at the CTS yard at Abernenui. Construction took between 38 and 41 months, and all three were complete between December 1934 and August 1935, looking like this:

[ img ]

In the first years of service, the class had problems with smoke interference to the bridge and forward tripod; all three were fitted with prominent funnel caps in 1937/8. Like other Thiarian cruisers, these three vessels made extensive cruises showing the flag prior to the war: Craigmiadh was at Spithead in 1937 for King George VI's coronation review together with the battleship Tuama; Trasolas and Tranacorr accompanied the battleship Crionna to Koko and Japan in 1938, and Craigmiadh and Tranacorr visited the US East coast in the spring of 1939. During that year, all three received two additional 13mm quads on a foremast platform and four single 13mm machineguns aft, increasing the total to 36. Although they were popular vessels, by 1939 it was clear that they could not stand against most allied 1930s heavy cruisers (Surrey-, San Francisco- or Algerie-classes), and they were assigned fleet duties, rather than be sent raiding as originally planned. All three were assigned to the cream of Thiaria's fleet when the war started, the carrier strike force. They had their first run-in with the Royal Navy on February 18th, 1940 in the battle of Daicheadach, where Thiaria's war effort was very nearly killed in its cradle. At the beginning of the battle, the Craigmiadh-class looked like this:

[ img ]

At the end of the battle, Craigmiadh and Tranacorr were gone. The class ship was one of the large Thiarian ships which was hit by British torpedo aircraft; she lost her starboard shaft and suffered flooding aft. Tranacorr kept close to her as the fleet maneuvered, and got separated from the main body. Just as Craigmiadh had restarted her engines, the British battleship HMS Collingwood came in range and opened fire. Tranacorr was hit by five 406mm shells and literally torn up; she went down within minutes with virtually all hands. Collingwood and some destroyers then closed in for killing Craigmiadh as well. The cruiser desperately shot back, badly damaged the destroyer HMS Jackal and exhausted her torpedoes in Collingwood's direction; embarrassingly, she hit the battleship twice, but both torpedoes malfunctioned. The torpedoes of the British destroyer HMS Javelin and Jaguar worked perfectly well, and Craigmiadh was sunk by five of them after a desperate fight. LT Trasolas survived the battle intact and remained with the carrier strike fleet. When the British had to recall most of their fleet due to the Battle for Norway, Trasolas took part in the victorious battle of Poncportan; she scored some hits on the battlecruiser HMS Howe, which eventually went down under the fire of LT Conlan and Caithreim, and suffered no damage herself. In the next month, Trasolas - one of the few Thiarian ships that had not suffered some sort of damage during the British offensive in January through March 1940 - was near constantly on patrol against a renewal of the British onslaught, but the British had their hands full on other fronts. Although most of their fleet was crippled, the Thiarians sent all that was still left eastward, in an attempt to seal off the Cape route for British trade and provoke anti-British elements in South Africa to revolt. That the existing heavy cruisers were not really well suited for raiding was known, but there were no alternatives for the time being. The Thiarians scored an initial success in late May 1940 by forcing an enemy convoy to scatter and then sinking six merchants with air strikes submarine attacks; apart from Trasolas, the Thiarian task force also contained an aircraft carrier, a battlecruiser, another heavy cruiser and two light cruisers. With their spirits up by this success, they made a major sortie into the Indian Ocean in July, but by that time, Recherche had entered the war on the allied side and dispatched pretty much its entire fleet (one carrier, two battleships, two battlecruisers, four heavy and seven light cruisers) to intercept the Thiarians. Outnumbered and far away from their bases, the Thiarians wisely called the sortie off and returned home safely. With the RN having its hands full in Europe, the Recherchans permanently based a sizeable force in Capetown in order to relieve the RN from convoy escort duty on the cape route, which was now of vital importance, after the Mediterranean had become a war zone. As the Rechercheans could operate close to the coast and rely on land-based air support, further Thiarian sorties frequently became games of hide and seek, with the attacking Thiarians devoting too much effort to remain undetected till the last second to really succeed. But on December 3rd, the new Thiarian commander Rear Admiral Toibin tried a different approach. He rounded the Cape of Good Hope and hit the Rechercheans far more easterly than ever before, achieving complete surprise. He had Trasolas and two other heavy cruisers charge headlong into the Recherchean distant cover group, then retreat after exchange of a few salvoes as if fleeing. The Rechercheans called in air support from Durban and pursued the Thiarians with the pocket battleship Balladonia and three light cruisers. Toibin's single carrier carried only 64 fighters during this mission and intercepted the air strike, which lacked fighter support; 33 out of 60 allied bombers were shot down, 31 of which were British Beauforts; 22 of the 24 Recherchean Galestorms escaped due to their superior speed. As the air battle raged, the Thiarian cruisers turned around and opened fire again; Balladonia was hit by so many 195mm shells that she had to retreat, and the light cruiser Black was sunk. Two Recherchean destroyers were also lost, and one light cruiser was damaged. On the Thiarian side, Trasolas and the newer Rinnfiain were hit, but remained operational; Trasolas had Turret A disabled and her forefunnel holed. One Thiarian O-class destroyer was also lost. The allied convoy scattered, but Thiarian destroyers and the battlecruisers Conlan and Caithreim sank nine merchants. After this success, Trasolas needed two months of repairs and missed the battle of Cairnmallacht. When she was back, preparations for the Invasion of New Portugal were in full swing, and the cape route was temporarily left to Thiaria's submarine arm. During the operations around New Portugal, Trasolas remained with the carriers and made no contact with the enemy. During the upheaval following the rupture of the fascist-communist coalition in Thiaria after Germany's attack on the Soviet Union, Trasolas was one of the ships that were affected worst; her crew staged a full-sized mutiny on August 3rd, 1941, brought her under their control and threatened to surrender her to the British and Rechercheans in Capetown. She was boarded by loyalist commandoes on August 15th, who freed the imprisoned officers and other loyalists and retook the ship in a violent infight. When she was back under control, she again needed repairs, because the mutineers had set off several demolition charges and nearly sunk her. She did not re-enter service before December; from January 1942, she was again tasked with raiding allied convoys on the cape route. By that time, she looked like this, sporting the typical all-blue 'raider' paintjob optimized for low visibility from the air:

[ img ]

During the first half of 1942, Trasolas was in the Indian Ocean three times. The first raid in February was abortive. On March 28th, Trasolas and two newer heavy cruisers engaged an allied convoy travelling close to the Namibian coast (so air support could be called in from Windhoek if necessary) and were beaten back by long-range fire from the Recherchean pocket battleship Balladonia, which hit LT Rinnfiain from 23 kilometers out and disabled Turret A. Another attempt - this time by only two Thiarian cruisers including Trasolas in early May - failed to make contact due to a severe late fall storm. Trasolas and the super-heavy cruiser Aigean were more lucky on June 1st; by that time, her crew had finally fully recovered from the anti-communist purge. They again ventured far east of the Cape of Good Hope, hunting a British convoy, which scattered; its close escort force flagship, the Indian cruiser HMS Effingham, heroically charged the Thiarians to buy time for the fourteen merchants. In a rather unorthodox move, the Thiarian commander dispatched Trasolas to deal with Effingham while Aigean with her longer ranged guns kept chasing the merchants. Effingham's commander fired at Aigean nevertheless, and Trasolas hit her with impunity, eventually sinking her with more than thirty 195mm hits and three torpedoes (two of which were duds). Aigean managed to run down and sink four merchants, then the Thiarians made off when air alert was sounded. Trasolas next covered the Capetown raid of August 2nd, then received an engine overhaul due to the huge mileage she had accumulated in the last eight months, so she missed the battle of Meanhchiorcal. She next was in action in November 1942, when she accompanied the battlecruiser Caithreim and two light cruisers, again towards the Cape, where they engaged a big allied convoy protected by the British battleship HMS Malaya plus two British and three Recherchean cruisers. Conlan heavily damaged Malaya, knocking out her main director with the second salvo and, which made sure she was not hit back. The Tharian light cruisers sunk the Recherchean HMS Norseman and damaged two British light cruisers. Trasolas and three Thiarian destroyer leaders then proceeded to sink no less than 13 of 21 allied merchant ships; they would have gotten 17 if not for their chronically malfunctioning torpedoes. It was the largest success of Thiarian surface raiders against British traffic on the Cape Route. For Trasolas, it was the final curtain. Her next sortie in early January 1943, together with the super heavy cruiser Aigean, ran into a convoy protected by two escort carriers, whose aircraft managed to put two torpedoes into Aigean, ripping her stern of, disabling one of her rudders and heavily impairing her maneuverability. The Recherchean cruisers Balladonia, Stokes and Mason (plus two light cruisers) engaged the Thiarians; although the Thiarian commander ordered Trasolas to take heel, her Skipper decided he could not run from an enemy with two escort carriers anyway and decided to engage the Rechercheans and at least take some of them down with him. Trasolas fired at the Recherchean heavy cruiser Mason, while Aigean tried to take out Balladonia; while Trasolas' fire was effective and Mason was forced to lay a smokescreen and veer away, Aigean could no longer fire precisely and was quickly overwhelmed by Balladonia and Stokes, finally going down after three more torpedo hits from Stokes at short distance. Trasolas meanwhile engaged the light cruiser Mondrain, which valiantly placed herself between the Thiarians and the crippled Mason, but before she could deal much damage to her, Balladonia and Stokes were back and quickly turned Trasolas into a burning wreck. When she finally capsized, only 280 of her crew could be rescued. With her loss, the Craigmiadh-class became the only Thiarian cruiser class to be entirely wiped out by the enemy.

BTW Krakatoa, by all means: don't sod off!

Greetings
GD


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KHT
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: RebootPosted: June 17th, 2016, 6:30 pm
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Beautiful. Just, simply beautiful.

EDIT: Just a small query, that I came to think of; Wasn't it more common that if only one of the forward turrets mounted a set of rangefinders, that it would be B turret rather than A turret, to avoid spray? Any particular reason why that isn't the case here?


Last edited by KHT on June 17th, 2016, 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Blackbuck
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: RebootPosted: June 17th, 2016, 7:05 pm
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I do wish I could summon the effort to do all of my 1930s/40s designs. You put me to shame!

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