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emperor_andreas
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: Other People's shipsPosted: March 11th, 2016, 6:06 am
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AWESOME!!!

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Skyder2598
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: Other People's shipsPosted: March 13th, 2016, 1:39 pm
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great work, esp. the "Wiesbaden" ;-)

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Garlicdesign
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: Other People's shipsPosted: March 16th, 2016, 7:30 pm
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Hello again!

Before I continue: The next two posts are not supposed to insult the Dutch or Danish people. If a developed country with a high standard of living falls into enemy hands virtually intact, widespread collaboration is what will happen, anywhere. People just have too much to lose. If someone occupied Germany today, I'd bloody well collaborate.

16. Products of collaboration - Part 1: Flottentorpedoboot 40
When the Netherlands were occupied by Germany, eight modern destroyers (the second batch of the Heemskerck-class) were under construction. Two of them could escape to Great Britain; two more were far enough advanced to be completed for the Kriegsmarine, which was done by mid-1942 under the new designators ZH3 and ZH4. The other four were only in the first stages of construction, but their propulsion plants were captured nearly complete. Dutch industry also had received orders for similar propulsion plants for four Norwegian destroyers; these were also captured. With series production of destroyer engines thus being in full swing and the industrial facilities entirely intact, the Germans were quick to seize the opportunity to build a new class of medium-sized destroyers around the captured plants. Outwardly, they looked like German Type 36 destroyers minus the aft funnel and gun Q, most other features being very similar; speed was slower at 36 knots and designed range rather short even by German standards at 2.500 miles at 20 knots. Their main guns were LA only, and the AA armament was limited to semi-automatic 37mm guns. On the plus side, they had ample weight reserves for later additions of light flak and ASW gear, their old-fashioned machinery was reliable and sturdy, and they were spacious, comfortable and good sea boats. The first eight were to be built in the Netherlands, two each at the Rotterdamsche Droogdok (T41 and T42), Wilton-Fijenoord (T43 and T44), Nederlandse Schepsbouw (T45 and T46) and De Schelde (T47 and T48). All were laid down during late 1940 and early 1941. Eight more were ordered from other yards in occupied North-Western European nations: T49 and T50 from the Norwegian Navy Yard at Horten, T51 and T52 from the Danish Navy yard in Copenhagen, T53 and T54 from Burmeister&Wain in Copenhagen and T55 and T56 from Cockerill in Antwerp; the engines were to be supplied from Dutch sources. Enthusiasm of the Dutch, Danish, Belgian and Norwegian Yards to build ships for the enemy varied from lukewarm to nonexistent. Before 1942, these countries were not treated very harshly, and many people there believed that Germany would win the war and they had to arrange themselves with the powers that be and prove their usefulness to them. Furthermore, the British were more reluctant to bomb industrial facilities in occupied countries than in Germany proper. This resulted in good progress, especially at De Schelde and Cockerill; the Danish Naval Yard also built quickly. The Amsterdam- and Rotterdam-built ships were however subject to various degrees of delay and sabotage; in Norway, the story was pretty much the same. The very small yard of Burmeister&Wain was too unexperienced with building such large and sophisticated ships and never proceeded very far; they were cancelled in 1942 in favour of escorts, which the Danes could build with less difficulty. In the event, of the first batch of 16 Flottentorpedoboote 1940, only seven were completed: T43 from Wilton Fijenoord in June 1944, after she was towed to Deschimag at Bremen in February 1943 for fitting out after the Dutch yard had effectively stopped to co-operate; T47 and T48 from De Schelde in May 1943 and November 1943; T51 and T52 from the Danish Navy Yard in September 1943 and February 1944, and T55 and T56 from Cockerill in August 1943 and April 1944. At the time of completion, these ships typically looked like this:

[ img ]

T43 was altered during her prolonged fitting-out period to mount her four 128mm LA guns in two twin turrets, which improved her ability to use her guns in heavy weather; she was usually employed in the Baltic with the trials and training flotilla, testing advanced Sensor and ASW gear and new torpedoes. In late 1944, she looked like this:

[ img ]

T43 survived the war and was ceded to the Soviet Union afterwards, being renamed Moshchniy. The other units of the class were progressively equipped with additional AA - they replaced their semi-automatic 37mm guns with fully automatic pieces in mid- to late 1944, received additional 20mm guns, sonar, more waterbombs and 380mm ASW mortars (Tauchgranatwerfer). T48, T51, T52 and T56 were lost in action: T48 during the battle of the Lofotes by gunfire from HMS Black Prince, T51 and T52 due to a navigation error in a friendly minefield off the Finnish coast in December 1944 and T56 by British Mosquito aircraft during the invasion in Normandy. When the war ended, the surviving units - except T43 - looked like this:

[ img ]

T47, T48 and T55 became British, French and US prizes, respectively; only the French recommissioned their boat, naming her Bruix.

As it had become apparent early on that the four yards who actually completed ships of this class were working more efficiently than the others, they received all the orders for the third batch of eight vessels, placed in mid-1941: T57 and T58 were laid down at the Danish Navy Yard, T59 and T60 at De Schelde, T61 and T62 at Wilton-Fijenoord and T63 and T64 at Cockerill, all of them in 1942. Only T57 was completed in February 1945, after being towed to Germania, Kiel for fitting out in December 1943. T57 - and the whole second batch in fact - differed from the others by having her four single 128mm LA guns replaced by two twin DP mounts and a DP director. Work on most ships slowed to a trickle during the second half of 1943, and by early 1944, the Germans cancelled the unfinished units of the class except T57 and T63; the former was commissioned, the latter bombed and destroyed by the RAF in Kiel in November 1944. Despite her powerful DP armament, T57 fell victim to aerial attack; Soviet Tu-2 bombers sank her off Libau in July 1945 while on refugee evacuation duty. By that time, T57 looked like this:

[ img ]

Greetings
GD


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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: Other People's shipsPosted: March 16th, 2016, 8:09 pm
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Great work GD,

Being on a DP armament crusade for the Germans I especially like T57 with the twin turrets.

One question I would have with the 'foreign' built units. Would the foreign yards be better off building a version of the K class sloops with DP guns as the hull and machinery would require less sophisticated workers. Much like the Flower corvettes went to yards with no RN experience.

(I may have to think of something else for my DP-KM)


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emperor_andreas
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: Other People's shipsPosted: March 16th, 2016, 10:19 pm
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Awesome!

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Hood
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: Other People's shipsPosted: March 17th, 2016, 2:01 pm
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Very nice work, nice looking small destroyers.
Any info on the 380mm Tauchgranatwerfer?

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eswube
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: Other People's shipsPosted: March 17th, 2016, 5:55 pm
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Splendid addition.


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maomatic
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: Other People's shipsPosted: March 17th, 2016, 6:24 pm
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Very nice work!

@Hood
Some quick info about the 38 cm Raketenwerfer 61 L/5.4 can be found on navweaps:
http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_38cm_RTG.htm

I should have some more info on this weapon in my library, I think.
Interestingly, some examples of this rare weapon still exist in museums.

When drawing it I was lucky to stumble upon some pictures of it on this German forum:
http://www.forum-marinearchiv.de/smf/in ... ic=13785.0


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Novice
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: Other People's shipsPosted: March 17th, 2016, 6:24 pm
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Hood wrote:
snip
Any info on the 380mm Tauchgranatwerfer?
This was a rocket propelled mortar used for destroying fortifications. It was a land weapon, which was the armament of the Sturmtiger, a monstrous tank, based on the Tiger tank.
[ img ].
This image shows that tank with the Tauchgranatwerfer. The small holes around the muzzle of the weapon were used to vent the gases from the barrel, so that instead of going back they vented out from the front.

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Gollevainen
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: Other People's shipsPosted: March 17th, 2016, 6:49 pm
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another nice addition, you do put the german never-wheres into great usage in this au

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