Shipbucket

Its part of the problem with building destroyers via Springsharp... and the need to put more AA onto ships. Well put it this way, its from an alternate timeline where the Chinese pulled a Meji Restoration and put aircraft to work, revealing the weakness of ships and aircraft. Wanted to have the Russians be significantly different. Splinter protection from bombs. Fear of aircraft sinking their ships... and the 130s will be also trying to stop torpedo boats and other destroyers too.

I just think,
Heavy AA guns on DDs are divided into 2 types,
1 - ones that are just to scare off aircraft typically early on small single guns without effective fire control..
2 - sets of guns with effective central director control often in power assisted mounts etc..
In your case you have able to fire on each beam, 1x 85mm (1) and 6x 130mm (2).

What does the 85mm give you that the 130 doesn't already do better ?
- HA AA = no
- LA ASurfW = no
- ?
So why bother with them ?

Consider it insurance in case the DP Battery didn't function to expectations? They'll more than likely get replaced when the class undergoes a refit.

That is what I was thinking.

While I work on making 'war-time upgrades' for the WW1 destroyers, here is a post-war design:
Heavy Escort Destroyer Design #1, United Nations Alliance Heavy Escort Destroyer laid down 1950

Displacement:
3,394 t light; 4,125 t standard; 5,000 t normal; 5,700 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(509.68 ft / 475.72 ft) x 59.06 ft x (17.22 / 18.64 ft)
(155.35 m / 145.00 m) x 18.00 m x (5.25 / 5.68 m)

Armament:
8 - 4.72" / 120 mm 70.0 cal guns - 85.00lbs / 38.56kg shells, 800 per gun
Auto rapid fire guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1950 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
1 raised mount
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread
1 raised mount aft
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 80.0 cal guns - 8.00lbs / 3.63kg shells, 900 per gun
Auto rapid fire guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1950 Model
2 x Twin mounts on sides, forward deck aft
2 x Twin mounts on sides, aft deck forward
12 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 80.0 cal guns - 8.00lbs / 3.63kg shells, 900 per gun
Auto rapid fire guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1950 Model
3 x Twin mounts on centreline, forward deck aft
1 raised mount - superfiring
3 x Twin mounts on centreline, aft deck forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 1.38" / 35.0 mm 80.0 cal guns - 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 8,000 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1950 Model
2 x Triple mounts on sides, aft deck aft
2 x Triple mounts on sides, forward deck forward
16 - 1.38" / 35.0 mm 80.0 cal guns - 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 8,000 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1950 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 896 lbs / 406 kg
Main DC/AS Mortars
6 - 300.00 lbs / 136.08 kg Depth Charges + 40 reloads - 6.161 t total
in Depth charge throwers
2nd DC/AS Mortars
6 - 50.00 lbs / 22.68 kg trainable AS Mortars + 100 reloads - 2.366 t total

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 3.00" / 76 mm -
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm 3.00" / 76 mm -
3rd: 3.00" / 76 mm 3.00" / 76 mm -

- Conning towers: Forward 1.00" / 25 mm, Aft 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 51,875 shp / 38,698 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,576 tons

Complement:
296 - 386

Cost:
£3.068 million / $12.273 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 336 tons, 6.7 %
- Guns: 301 tons, 6.0 %
- Weapons: 35 tons, 0.7 %
Armour: 251 tons, 5.0 %
- Armament: 239 tons, 4.8 %
- Conning Towers: 13 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 1,241 tons, 24.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,165 tons, 23.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,606 tons, 32.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 8.0 %
- On freeboard deck: 200 tons
- Above deck: 200 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,224 lbs / 1,463 Kg = 61.2 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 14.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 80 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.40
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.25

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
an extended bulbous bow and small transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.362 / 0.381
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.06 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.95 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 45.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 10.99 ft / 3.35 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 22.97 ft / 7.00 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 19.95 ft / 6.08 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 111.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 218.8 %
Waterplane Area: 17,270 Square feet or 1,604 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 122 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 50 lbs/sq ft or 243 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.46
- Longitudinal: 1.24
- Overall: 0.51
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Basically it's main job is to escort fleets and provide anti-air cover. It's sort of a joint project between the Scandinavian Countries, much of Europe, and the US. Later upgrades remove much of the 35s, a few 57s, and two 120s for a pair of missiles based on the Terrier missile system and associated equipment.

Sometimes I want a HG-51 style program for ship design though, springsharp is a bit... clunky... at times.

Re post war design,

- Have a look at RL DL1 Norfolk, Mitscher-class and Daring class
- I think your to big to be affordable post war (by anybody let alone none USN)
- Too many weapons IMO remember that in 50s all of them will each have to have heavy single purpose electronic directors to be effective.
- 4.72" isnt a USN/NATO cal it would almost certainly be 5" look at http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_5-54_mk65.htm
- 20x 57mm is a lot (as is 28x 35mm) this will require a huge crew and lots of directors. (and I'm not sure what the 35mm add as anything they can hit will be killed by the 57mm, assuming same fire control)
- DC are obsolete by 1950 especially on such a big ship.
- 50lb/22.68 kg is light for the AS Mortar I would go with something bigger and longer range (Limbo - 400lb/Alpha 525lb)
- 3" protection on the 57mm guns !!! and a CT, I would go to much less as you don't have anything over the Mags/engines anyway !
- Diesel more likely would be Steam in 1950s
- Put range at a fast fleet speed as this is a CV escort IMO
- Not sure about extended bulbous bow
- 0.51 may be a bit low for a 5000t ship maybe ?
- its going to be very expensive (£3.068 million / $12.273 million+ due to all the radars SS will not think of) and have a huge crew (296 - 386+ due to numbers of light AA, 48 gun x 6 crew min each = 288 by itself at a minimum!) I would cut it a lot.

Hope you don't take this to critically, I like /discussing potential ships would you mind if I posted a reply design for people to comment on in this thread ?

Alright, I can work to fix that. Alright by me.

OK my take on a Heavy Escort Destroyer Design,

Very heavy this is designed to stand v WWII CLs if needed but mainly to escort fast CV forces.

Heavy Escort Destroyer, NATO DDHE laid down 1950

Displacement:
4,646 t light; 4,889 t standard; 5,670 t normal; 6,295 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(472.00 ft / 439.00 ft) x 50.00 ft x (20.00 / 21.52 ft)
(143.87 m / 133.81 m) x 15.24 m x (6.10 / 6.56 m)

Armament:
6 - 5.00" / 127 mm 70.0 cal guns - 70.00lbs / 31.75kg shells, 270 per gun
Auto rapid fire guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1950 Model
3 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 70.0 cal guns - 15.00lbs / 6.80kg shells, 1,000 per gun
Auto rapid fire guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1950 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
2 x Twin mounts on sides, aft deck centre
Weight of broadside 540 lbs / 245 kg
Main DC/AS Mortars
6 - 400.00 lbs / 181.44 kg trainable AS Mortars + 30 reloads - 6.429 t total

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm 0.50" / 13 mm

- Box over machinery & magazines:
2.00" / 51 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 61,474 shp / 45,860 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,406 tons

Complement:
326 - 424

Cost:
£3.515 million / $14.061 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 386 tons, 6.8 %
- Guns: 315 tons, 5.6 %
- Weapons: 71 tons, 1.2 %
Armour: 426 tons, 7.5 %
- Armament: 66 tons, 1.2 %
- Armour Deck: 360 tons, 6.3 %
Machinery: 1,471 tons, 25.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,763 tons, 31.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,024 tons, 18.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 600 tons, 10.6 %
- Hull below water: 200 tons
- On freeboard deck: 200 tons
- Above deck: 200 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
5,975 lbs / 2,710 Kg = 95.6 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 2.0 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 14.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.37
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.44

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and small transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.452 / 0.466
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.78 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.70 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 45.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 30.00 ft / 9.14 m, 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 26.00 ft / 7.92 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 22.42 ft / 6.83 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 179.3 %
Waterplane Area: 14,351 Square feet or 1,333 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 120 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 68 lbs/sq ft or 330 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.72
- Longitudinal: 3.65
- Overall: 0.84
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Feel free to comment/rip it to shreds......


PS just to add my ship has Complement of 326 - 424 v 296 - 386 on yours even when I have far fewer guns (even if they are bigger they are mostly automatic so not sure they use any more crew), mine is bigger but that hides the extra hull strength.

Hm... I was using the Bofors 57mm L/70 design as a basis of the 57mm guns. Can stuff a lot more 57mm ammo than 76mm ammo. Thing is with how Springsharp is designed (it never got the code for the engine type actually in because Springsharp development ended before that could be implemented), the only way for a destroyer is to effectively be about .51 to be an actual destroyer.

Heavy Escort Destroyer Design #2, United Nations Alliance Heavy Escort Destroyer laid down 1950

Displacement:
4,091 t light; 4,501 t standard; 5,500 t normal; 6,299 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(511.32 ft / 475.72 ft) x 52.49 ft x (17.22 / 18.94 ft)
(155.85 m / 145.00 m) x 16.00 m x (5.25 / 5.77 m)

Armament:
8 - 5.00" / 127 mm 70.0 cal guns - 85.00lbs / 38.56kg shells, 700 per gun
Auto rapid fire guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1950 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
1 raised mount
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread
1 raised mount aft
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 80.0 cal guns - 8.00lbs / 3.63kg shells, 1,000 per gun
Auto rapid fire guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1950 Model
1 x Twin mount on sides, forward deck aft
1 x Twin mount on sides, aft deck forward
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 80.0 cal guns - 8.00lbs / 3.63kg shells, 1,000 per gun
Auto rapid fire guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1950 Model
1 x Twin mount on centreline, forward deck aft
1 raised mount
1 x Twin mount on centreline, aft deck forward
1 raised mount
Weight of broadside 744 lbs / 337 kg
Main DC/AS Mortars
6 - 850.00 lbs / 385.55 kg trainable AS Mortars + 60 reloads - 25.045 t total

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 3.00" / 76 mm -
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -

- Conning towers: Forward 1.00" / 25 mm, Aft 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, plus diesel motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 74,066 shp / 55,253 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 6,700nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,799 tons

Complement:
319 - 415

Cost:
£3.785 million / $15.139 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 552 tons, 10.0 %
- Guns: 277 tons, 5.0 %
- Weapons: 275 tons, 5.0 %
Armour: 117 tons, 2.1 %
- Armament: 104 tons, 1.9 %
- Conning Towers: 13 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,772 tons, 32.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,124 tons, 20.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,409 tons, 25.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 9.1 %
- Hull above water: 100 tons
- On freeboard deck: 200 tons
- Above deck: 200 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
2,487 lbs / 1,128 Kg = 39.8 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 14.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.44
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.10

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
an extended bulbous bow and small transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.448 / 0.466
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.06 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 45.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 10.99 ft / 3.35 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 24.61 ft / 7.50 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m, 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 20.08 ft / 6.12 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 126.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 191.2 %
Waterplane Area: 16,266 Square feet or 1,511 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 46 lbs/sq ft or 223 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.46
- Longitudinal: 1.31
- Overall: 0.51
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Well here is design #2, not as long ranged as I would like but still.

My question is who its for ? if Scandinavian or USSR that makes sense but post war NATO/USN/RN will have accesses to VT shells (min size 3") and that makes the 3" gun (especially /70) better than 57mm (or 40 or 35mm) I was just thinking this isn't really a light DD more CL by another name so would it be better to go to .75 ? (It will have to run in the far north with big CVs so size and sea keeping do matter)

I like the second go my only Qs would be,
- the 85lb shells are very heavy for the gun/date ?
- 3" on mounts ? When you don't have any belt or deck ? (and why the CT)

Now all we need to do is try to shipbucket them feel free to suggest any changes to mine before I try it out ?