Shipbucket

RN Policy? We chase! We do not run!

Is that not why they had the wing turrets so that they could have up to 6 guns firing forward in the chase. Having superfiring forward may reduce that to four but I think it gives a better balance.

(Hmmm maybe a 'Challenge' in there somewhere "My Countries first Dreadnought 1905-10")

Other predreadnoughts 1902-1905 (from Wiki)

The RN worked on 2 classes of battleship between the 1902 KEVII and the 1905 Dreadnught,

The Swiftsure
The Swiftsure class was a group of two British pre-dreadnought battleships. Originally ordered by Chile during a period of high tension with Argentina, they were intended to defeat a pair of armoured cruisers ordered by the latter country and were optimized for this role. This meant that they were smaller and more lightly armed than most battleships of the time. They were purchased by the United Kingdom in 1903 prior to their completion to prevent their purchase by the Russian Empire as tensions were rising between them and the Japanese Empire, a British ally. Completed the following year, Swiftsure and Triumph both had very short carriers in the RN being sold off to Japan during the 1904/05 war. The sale was quickly organised as a response to the Dogger Bank incident (Oct 1904) and as both the lighter battleships where already in Egypt they arrived (Jan 05) to join the IJN well before Tsushima (May 05). The 2 ships survived the battle and serving on later reclassified as a coastal defence and training ships in 1921, Both disarmed and finally broken up for scrap in 1923 due to WNT.

The Lord Nelson
The Lord Nelson class was a two-ship class (they would have been named as Lord Nelson and Agamemnon) of pre-dreadnought battleships laid down by the Royal Navy in 1905, both were cancelled in early 1906, after naval combat during the Russo–Japanese War of 1904–1905 suggested that engagement ranges would increase to the point that intermediate and secondary batteries would become far less important and perhaps even ineffective, and that smaller-calibre guns would be useless in combat between capital ships of the new HMS Dreadnought laid down in 1905 indeed their main battery guns and mountings and much other parts were diverted to Dreadnought to expedite her completion within such a short time frame.

Cutting these 4 ships raised questions in parliament about the strength of the RN but the admiralty was able to successfully reassure the cabinet that the spending should be more wisely spent on longer term projects rather than a few more battleships that would improve British superiority only slightly and would soon be out of date due to coming developments.

HMS Dreadnought (BB1905) from Wiki.

HMS Dreadnought was a battleship of the Royal Navy that revolutionised naval power. Her entry into service in 1906 represented such a marked advance in naval technology that her name came to be associated with an entire generation of battleships, the "dreadnoughts", as well as the class of ships named after her. The generation of ships she made obsolete became known as "pre-dreadnoughts". She was the sixth ship of that name in the Royal Navy.

Dreadnought was the first battleship of her era to have a uniform main battery, rather than having a few large guns complemented by a heavy secondary battery of smaller guns. She was also the first capital ship to be powered by steam turbines, making her the fastest battleship in the world at the time of her completion. Her launch helped spark a naval arms race as navies around the world, particularly the German Imperial Navy, rushed to match her in the build-up to World War I.

Dreadnought did not participate in any of World War I's naval battles as she was being refitted during the Battle of Jutland in 1916. This was the only time that British dreadnought battleships fired on their German counterparts during the war. She became the only battleship to sink a submarine when she rammed the SM U-29 when it unexpectedly broke the surface after firing a torpedo at another dreadnought in 1915.[3] She was relegated to coastal defence duties in the English Channel after Jutland, only rejoining the Grand Fleet in 1918. She was reduced to reserve in 1919 and sold for scrap two years later.

HMS Dreadnought, GB Battleships D1905 laid down 1905

Displacement:
15,888 t light; 16,779 t standard; 18,132 t normal; 19,215 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(520.00 ft / 520.00 ft) x 84.00 ft x (29.00 / 30.30 ft)
(158.50 m / 158.50 m) x 25.60 m x (8.84 / 9.24 m)

Armament:
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm 45.0 cal guns - 860.00lbs / 390.09kg shells, 120 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1903 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, aft deck forward
1 raised mount aft - superfiring
10 - 4.70" / 119 mm 45.0 cal guns - 45.00lbs / 20.41kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1885 Model
10 x Single mounts on side ends, majority forward
4 - 4.70" / 119 mm 44.0 cal guns - 45.00lbs / 20.41kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1885 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline, forward deck aft
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 7,510 lbs / 3,406 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 330.00 ft / 100.58 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 180.00 ft / 54.86 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
10.00 ft / 3.05 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
1.00" / 25 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 64.00 ft / 19.51 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
2nd: 4.00" / 102 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 4.00" / 102 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 12.00" / 305 mm, Aft 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 25,678 shp / 19,156 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 6,600nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,436 tons (70% coal)

Complement:
780 - 1,015

Cost:
£1.531 million / $6.124 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,361 tons, 7.5 %
- Guns: 1,361 tons, 7.5 %
Armour: 6,481 tons, 35.7 %
- Belts: 2,807 tons, 15.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 389 tons, 2.1 %
- Armament: 1,621 tons, 8.9 %
- Armour Deck: 1,428 tons, 7.9 %
- Conning Towers: 238 tons, 1.3 %
Machinery: 2,077 tons, 11.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,568 tons, 30.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,244 tons, 12.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 2.2 %
- On freeboard deck: 200 tons
- Above deck: 200 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
23,316 lbs / 10,576 Kg = 27.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 4.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.55
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.50

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.501 / 0.508
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.19 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.80 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 25.00 ft / 7.62 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 15.01 ft / 4.58 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 15.01 ft / 4.58 m, 15.01 ft / 4.58 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 15.01 ft / 4.58 m, 15.01 ft / 4.58 m
- Average freeboard: 17.16 ft / 5.23 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 115.0 %
Waterplane Area: 29,129 Square feet or 2,706 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 154 lbs/sq ft or 753 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.82
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

2 alternative KVGs from the late 30s,

Option 1 is a semi realistic quick modification alt with loosening of the tonnage restrictions to give a bit more speed and 12 x 14" guns
Option 2 is full hindsight alternative using old 15" guns/mounts (4 from spare/4 from monitors/20 from R class) to give a cheaper faster KVG class.



Sorry Krakatoa, I had forgotten about your alt ships and did these from the RL ones for a different forum (I should just have linked yours as these are just 10 mins by eye work and Im sure your are much better thought through and scaled etc)

They look mighty familiar designs JSB

With the Dreadnought, you have the Q/R turrets facing the right way. A lot of people forget that it is the distance available from the A/B barbette to the Q/R barbette that is the space available (times breadth) for the boilers for your propulsion system. If you have your Q's guns facing aft you are losing 20-25 feet of boiler space. That is not a problem if you are going to have more boilers aft of the Q turret (Lions/Tiger BC).

The same applies to your later FBB's. To increase the speed you will have to increase the powerplant size which means more space between B and X/Y barbettes. The extra length you have given the designs will also help to increase and maintain a higher speed.

Ok next jumping a few (!) years (and going back to let in the R class not sure how to keep a consistent progress down the years as I just don't like some RN ships maybe they are build by the opposing faction against me in response to my over cost QEs )

So the R class As OTL till the 30s then,

Second class battleships after the LNT the Admiralty ('prompted' by politicians) started to look at second class battleships and the lower treaty limits such as 14 (or even 12") guns.

In the early/mid 30s the RN needed to rebuild its ship for the longer life now expected of them due to LNT and this combined with the new thinking about 14" guns made them offer a proposal to the cabinet, this was then accepted as a disarmament gesture that would be put into place before the 2LNT of 1936, after consulting with the USN and especially with the IJN in the hope of persuading them to keep to the treaty's (after 34 deceleration) and especially the new 2LNT under discussion (and specifically the 14" gun limit).

(With hindsight some think that it was a cunning ploy by a faction within the RN high command to get the better of the peace and disarmament factions in the cabinet and HMT)

R class (cheap) rebuilds as second class battleships started 1935 completion 1937-38

Publicly offered as a futile nieve disarmament gesture to the world, that sadly wasn't reciprocated (or a dirty trick by the 1st sea lord you can make up your own mind ?)

Looks ok JSB, I would query the 40mm, while the guns are available the RN did not show any interest in them till 1940 when the Dutch brought over their mountings. You would still have the quad and octuple 2pd mountings which would have been fitted.

I don't mind

Also, I just did this.



In case you want to revisit these designs. (Also thinking about doing the 16"turret with that shading)

_________________
Would you please not eat my gun...

Well in my AU the Rn never developed the HV 2pdr and instead went with the 40mm/60 at the same time as the army after 1933 trials at first only in single mounts but later in twins and quads (and maybe more)

As you can probably tell I might be trying (not always successfully note main guns, but at least they where found in a dockyard pile ready to use rather than new build ) to standardise the number of weapons in the fleet.

So I take it that means when your AU gets to the latter half of the 20th century you won't be following the real-life RN's simultaneous use of two different CIWS?