Shipbucket

The thought for this challenge came from discussing first Dreadnoughts in JSB's new AU.

This is a difficult one to stick parameters on. Most of the early Dreadnoughts were 18,000 to 23,000 tons with up to 12" armour belts. 18 knots to 23 knots. Gun sizes ranged around the 11"-12". Could you have an early fast battleship (25 knots), but less speed than the early 26-27 knot battlecruisers? Should BC's be included to widen the scope of the Challenge?

There are a lot of good AU's in SB that might want to do a revision of their first Dreadnought class. Go to it!

Comments welcome!



For inspiration, the ship that started it all......

a challenge and my 1905 battleships is ready.

HMS Dreadnought, GB Battleships laid down 1905
HMS Dreadnought, GB Battleships D1905 laid down 1905

Displacement:
15,888 t light; 16,779 t standard; 18,132 t normal; 19,215 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(520.00 ft / 520.00 ft) x 84.00 ft x (29.00 / 30.30 ft)
(158.50 m / 158.50 m) x 25.60 m x (8.84 / 9.24 m)

Armament:
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm 45.0 cal guns - 860.00lbs / 390.09kg shells, 120 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1903 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, aft deck forward
1 raised mount aft - superfiring
10 - 4.70" / 119 mm 45.0 cal guns - 45.00lbs / 20.41kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1885 Model
10 x Single mounts on side ends, majority forward
4 - 4.70" / 119 mm 44.0 cal guns - 45.00lbs / 20.41kg shells, 200 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1885 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline, forward deck aft
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 7,510 lbs / 3,406 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 330.00 ft / 100.58 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 180.00 ft / 54.86 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
10.00 ft / 3.05 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
1.00" / 25 mm 350.00 ft / 106.68 m 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 64.00 ft / 19.51 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
2nd: 4.00" / 102 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 4.00" / 102 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 12.00" / 305 mm, Aft 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 25,678 shp / 19,156 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 6,600nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,436 tons (70% coal)

Complement:
780 - 1,015

Cost:
£1.531 million / $6.124 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,361 tons, 7.5 %
- Guns: 1,361 tons, 7.5 %
Armour: 6,481 tons, 35.7 %
- Belts: 2,807 tons, 15.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 389 tons, 2.1 %
- Armament: 1,621 tons, 8.9 %
- Armour Deck: 1,428 tons, 7.9 %
- Conning Towers: 238 tons, 1.3 %
Machinery: 2,077 tons, 11.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,568 tons, 30.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,244 tons, 12.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 2.2 %
- On freeboard deck: 200 tons
- Above deck: 200 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
23,316 lbs / 10,576 Kg = 27.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 4.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.55
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.50

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.501 / 0.508
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.19 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.80 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 25.00 ft / 7.62 m, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 20.00 ft / 6.10 m, 15.01 ft / 4.58 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 15.01 ft / 4.58 m, 15.01 ft / 4.58 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 15.01 ft / 4.58 m, 15.01 ft / 4.58 m
- Average freeboard: 17.16 ft / 5.23 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 115.0 %
Waterplane Area: 29,129 Square feet or 2,706 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 154 lbs/sq ft or 753 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.82
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Hmm... Whats the year range for this challenge? For example, Denton's first dreadnoughts (which i need to update, however slightly) were laid down in 1911, with 27,000 tons and 14" guns. However, if the challenge dictates an earlier year range (and lower tonnage, smaller guns), then I suppose I could whip up a concept.

_________________
Salide - Denton - The Interrealms

I am not very active on the forums anymore, but work is still being done on my AUs. Visit the Salidan Altiverse Page on the SB Wiki for more information. All current work is being done on Google Docs.
If anyone wishes for their nations to interact with the countries of the Salidan Altiverse, please send me a PM, after which we can further discuss through email.

The heading does say 1905-10, up to 25,000 tons, 11-12" (nobody used bigger on their first dreadnought).

Alright, then, just checking.
Well, technically, the New York class BB (of which Denton's first dreadnoughts are based) have 14" guns and the New York and Texas were considered dreads... *fades out*
But, fair enough, I have an idea for a dreadnought of that time period.

_________________
Salide - Denton - The Interrealms

I am not very active on the forums anymore, but work is still being done on my AUs. Visit the Salidan Altiverse Page on the SB Wiki for more information. All current work is being done on Google Docs.
If anyone wishes for their nations to interact with the countries of the Salidan Altiverse, please send me a PM, after which we can further discuss through email.

For my entry I have gone with a fast battleship concept. 23,500 tons normal displacement, 634x86 feet, 10x12" 16x4", 45,000shp for 25 knots, 11" belt, 2" deck, 10" turret and conning tower armour.

My mate Jackie Fisher wanted less armour and more speed, so I had to fire him even earlier than in my other thread.




It is possible to fire all turrets to each broadside, but after the initial trials firing this would only be done in time of war. Trials found that the blast from the guns lifted the wooden deck covering and blew it over the side.

I think you could interpret it 2 ways,

1) A first dreadnought in the opening wave of 1906-1909, this would likely be small with 12" guns in mostly suboptimal layouts and 19-21 Kn speed, examples would be,
- HMS Dreadnought herself
- South Carolina
- Nassau class
- etc

2) the first dreadnought for some obscure (AU) Nation, this could easily be later (and a much better ships)
some examples of a first dreadnought, (getting more powerful as you go down ish)
- España class
- Dante Alighieri
- Tegetthoff-class
- Minas Geraes
- Courbet class
- Gangut-class
- ARA Rivadavia
- Almirante Latorre
- Reşadiye-class
- Fusō-class (technically first as BC/Semi don't count )

So is ether OK or should be have more specific rules ? (and do BC count , ie was Kongo the first for IJN she would have beaten many of the dreadnoughts on this list)

IMO your fast BB is just a little to big to be realistic not just money but dock availability will be hard to deal with. (looks like a 1910-14 export fast battleships so could be first but don't think for RN or 1906 personally)

Fuso? Try the Aki and its sister with 12x12" in lozenge arrangement.

OK I accept that the Kawachi class are really dreadnoughts even if badly designed with 2 types of 12" so cant range effectively (isn't that the whole point of having just 12" guns !), but don't think AKi counts as a dreadnought (12"/10"), so Fusō class are first with uniform battery (if you exclude BCs of the Kongo class, it was a bit of a stretch to show how far you could go Almirante Latorre and Reşadiye-class will have to do instead)

Hell again!

I really wanted to collect a few more fictional Ottoman ships and post them as a complete AU, but what the hell... how about that one?



German built (obviously) as a reduced Kaiser with suitably shallow draught for Turkish waters and - most importantly - an early enough design to be delivered before the first world war starts (maybe even in time for the second Balkan War, which might change history quite a bit).

Overview: 22.000 tons normal, 24.000 tons full load, 22 knots, 8 - 305/50 guns (arranged as on SMS von der Tann), 12 - 150/50 guns, 18 - 88/45 guns, 4 - 450 torpedo tubes, Armour 300mm vertical/40+40mm horizontal/40mm torpedo bulkhead.

Greetings
GD