Shipbucket

ALT 20th Century RN

I have been inspired by Krakatoa's great thread to do my own version of an alternative RN (and other great AU on this site to many to mention )

This AU will be a alternative RN 20th century history, I fully admit from the start it may be a little biased (!) and will have to include a massive butterfly net to stop it diverging to much from OTL at each era.

I will start off with a few lists and tables and then hopefully actually get round to finishing some of my many ship that fit into this 'story'

At the start the 20th century the RN was the largest navy in the world by 1901 with,
- 29 British battleships of the Majestic, Canopus, Formidable, London, Queen, and Duncan classes then in service or under construction.
- 54 first class cruiser of the Blake, Edgar, Powerful, Diadem and Cressy classes.(and 11 older Nelson, Imperieuse, Orlando class)
- other, second and third class cruisers (lots !)

The following posts will go through the ship of the Alt RN, feel free to comment or suggest ideas (the politicians might make the admiralty buy commercial designs every so oftener ) thanks JSB.

My first ships the core of the fleet, the Battleships of the 1902 class....

The King Edward VII class (KEVII, nicknamed "The Wobbly Eight") was a class of 8 battleships Laid down 02-04 launched 03-05 commissioning 05-07 and acted as the link between the earlier predreadnughts and later Dreadnoughts.(from Wiki)

Armament
By 1901, the 29 British battleships of the Majestic, Canopus, Formidable, London, Queen, and Duncan classes then in service or under construction, all following the same basic design by Sir William White, had come under criticism as being undergunned for their displacement. All of them had 12 inch (305 mm) guns in twin turrets and a secondary armament of 6 inch (152 mm) guns, questions were beginning to arise as to the usefulness of 6 inch (152 mm) guns in the face of improved armour in foreign battleships, and it was noted that foreign navies such as those of Italy and the United States had begun to arm their battleships with an intermediate battery of 8 inch (203 mm) guns. The King Edward VII class was Like the classes in between a direct descendant of the Majestic class, but it was also the first class to make a significant departure from the Majestic design, built as a response to the criticism with inspiration from the 1890 Brandenburg-class and earlier Colossus-class 1882, with the idea of adding a centre 12" mount to get six 12 inch (305 mm) guns in three twin turrets and a secondary armament of twelve 6 inch (152 mm) guns, the intention being to halt the gap in fire-power and maintaining the dominance of the Royal Navy.

The first five ships (Commonwealth, Dominion, Hindustan, HMS King Edward VII, and New Zealand/Zealandia) mounted the Mark IX 12-inch gun, while the final three (Africa, Britannia, and Hibernia) mounted the more advanced Mark X 12-inch gun.[2] The new Mk X gun with bore length increased from 40 to 45 calibres (i.e. from 40–45 feet (12–14 m)) allowed more cordite propellant to be burned and increased muzzle velocity from 2,600 feet per second (790 m/s) to 2,700 feet per second (820 m/s), giving a significant increase in range and armour penetration.[2]
Mounting of the 6 inch guns in casemates was abandoned in this class, the 6 inch instead being placed in a central battery amidships protected by 7 inch (178 mm) armoured walls.

Armour
Armour was improved over the Formidable class, with 10" main belt, 12" on gun faces and Barbette and a 2" deck, a new development was changes to the hull including longitudinal 1" bulkheads that protected the magazines and propulsion spaces running through the ship although there were various problems in detail that reduced its effectiveness.

Seaworthiness
The King Edward VIIs were the first British battleships with balanced rudders since the 1870s and were very manoeuvrable, with a tactical diameter of 340 yards (310 m) at 15 knots (28 km/h). However, they were difficult to keep on a straight course, and this characteristic led to them being nicknamed "the Wobbly Eight" during their 1914–1916 service in the Grand Fleet. They had a slightly faster roll than previous British battleship classes, but were good gun platforms.

Propulsion
Primarily powered by coal, all of the class except New Zealand had oil sprayers installed during construction, the first time this had been done in British battleships. These allowed steam pressure to be rapidly increased, improving the acceleration of the ships. The eight ships between them were given four different boiler installations for comparative purposes, but all exceeded their designed power, making 19.3+ knots (35.7 km/h) on trials.

Operational history
The King Edward VIIs served together as a tactical unit during much of their careers, operating in the Atlantic Fleet, Channel Fleet, and Home Fleet before World War I. They formed the 3rd Battle Squadron in 1912, with individual ships leaving the squadron between 1916 and 1918. The squadron served in the Mediterranean during the First Balkan War in 1912–1913 and in the Grand Fleet for most of the first half of World War I, although it was detached to the Channel Fleet for a time in 1914 and two ships served in the Dardanelles Campaign (1915–1916).[6] The ships were treated as expendable while with the Grand Fleet, which routinely placed them at the heads of divisions of the more valuable dreadnoughts to protect the dreadnoughts by watching for mines or being the first to strike mines.[5] The 3rd Battle Squadron left the Grand Fleet in 1916; as it gradually broke up between 1916 and 1918, some ships served in the Adriatic Sea and Atlantic, while others performed subsidiary duties in home waters or went into reserve. One was lost during World War I and those that survived the war were sold for scrapping in 1921 and 1922.

KEVII, GB Battleships PD laid down 1902

Displacement:
14,246 t light; 14,979 t standard; 15,992 t normal; 16,803 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(460.00 ft / 460.00 ft) x 80.00 ft x (26.00 / 27.07 ft)
(140.21 m / 140.21 m) x 24.38 m x (7.92 / 8.25 m)

Armament:
6 - 12.00" / 305 mm 40.0 cal guns - 849.99lbs / 385.55kg shells, 105 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1898 Model
3 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm 45.0 cal guns - 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1899 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm 40.0 cal guns - 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 400 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1883 Model
12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
12 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 6,372 lbs / 2,890 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 7.00" / 178 mm 160.00 ft / 48.77 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Upper: 10.0" / 254 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
1.00" / 25 mm 300.00 ft / 91.44 m 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 70.00 ft / 21.34 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
2nd: 7.00" / 178 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
3rd: 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 12.00" / 305 mm, Aft 7.00" / 178 mm

Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 18,148 ihp / 13,538 Kw = 19.20 kts
Range 5,600nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,823 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
710 - 924

Cost:
£1.360 million / $5.442 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 991 tons, 6.2 %
- Guns: 991 tons, 6.2 %
Armour: 5,773 tons, 36.1 %
- Belts: 2,802 tons, 17.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 278 tons, 1.7 %
- Armament: 1,536 tons, 9.6 %
- Armour Deck: 898 tons, 5.6 %
- Conning Towers: 260 tons, 1.6 %
Machinery: 2,750 tons, 17.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,432 tons, 27.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,746 tons, 10.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.9 %
- On freeboard deck: 200 tons
- Above deck: 100 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18,953 lbs / 8,597 Kg = 21.9 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.28
Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 14.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 79 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.42
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.57

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.585 / 0.590
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.75 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.45 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 23.59 ft / 7.19 m, 19.30 ft / 5.88 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 19.30 ft / 5.88 m, 15.01 ft / 4.58 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 15.01 ft / 4.58 m, 15.01 ft / 4.58 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 15.01 ft / 4.58 m, 15.01 ft / 4.58 m
- Average freeboard: 16.85 ft / 5.14 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 113.9 %
Waterplane Area: 26,540 Square feet or 2,466 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 137 lbs/sq ft or 669 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.82
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

WOW, great start

_________________
best regards
Martin

~~Normerr~~FD stuff~~

Good looking first start JSB.

Could you not find a lower hull to suit the King Edward VII class?

I am looking forward to seeing the progression of ships through your timeline.

Good work!

But,
The idea isn't workable. Simply speaking - six 12" isn't going to make ship a dreadnought. Their actual volume of fire would be less than from traditional semi-dreadnought warships. 12"/40 Mark X is capable to only about 1,5 shells per minute per gun; so with six mounts in boardside we would have only 9 shells per minute at best.

The actual armament of KEVII consisted of four 12" and four 9" (two per boardside). They were capable of 3-4 round per minute. So, the actual KEVII was able to have 12-14 shells per minute. The volume of fire is much better.

Also, the actual KEVII could use it's 9" guns as chasers. On this ship, it's impossible, so the chase/retreat fire is pretty weak.

_________________
Serve the Nation! Be striped!

KVG v AUKVG
4x 12" + 2x 9.2" + v 6x 12"
(4x850)x1.5 + (2x380)x3.5 = 7760
(6x850)x1.5 = 7650 (and the one more 6" (100x6) makes it 8250 anyway)

I didn't want to build a proper dreadnought but I don't think the difference between the ships is very significant (if not a advantage to mine) when you add the advantages of penetration and accuracy of the 12" guns ?

The biggest problem with the semi-Dreadnoughts is that the 9.2" and 12" shell splashes make spotting difficult at the longer arranges. Having a broadside of 6x12" as an intermediate armament before Dreadnought is a good step.

Although the RN was not keen on the idea of superfiring turrets, I can see an enlarged KE7 with superfiring turrets (10x12") as a good first Dreadnought.

Nearly reading my mind (I'm debating adding a super firing centre mount, saves length but cant fire over the other anyway)

The alternative layout could be, superfiring forward (2 turrets), Q turret, then X/Y as per original Dreadnought. Loses the wing turrets and gains a full ten gun broadside.

Yes, but if you have forward AB super firing why would you not have XY as well and that (+Q as 13.5"BBs) just gets to good for the first dreadnought IMO.

I want 8 gun broadside (as OTL) but don't like wings I was thinking about layouts.

1) X --- P over Q (to give better arcs forward) ----- A
2) XY - Q - A (and accept you cant fire Y over X)
3) X --- P ---- Q ----A (Gangute style)

9) XY---BA (coming later, after a few mistakes )

Not sure that chasing fire is a huge unworkable detraction that's what we have the BCs for ! (cant be that good)