Shipbucket

The Royal Navy has always required a lot of destroyer class vessels for all levels and types of roles, from screening the battlefleet to chasing Pirates in the Carribean (look out Jack Sparrow).

The trials with Amazon and Ambuscade led to the excellent A -to- F classes of destroyers completed between 1929 and 1934. The classes were laid down at one flotilla of eight ships plus a leader per year except for the 'C' class where only four ships were laid down because of the depression. Those ships were subsequently transferred to Canada and renamed.

The ships were a standard size with the destroyers being 1500 tons standard and 323x34 feet, while the leaders were 1,650 tons standard and 335x35 feet.

What made these ships different from the earlier low angle 4.7" armed ships was that in Amazon and Ambuscade, both trialled a new 65 degree mounting to give the gun an anti-aircraft value. This was done in response to the big heavy 4.7" Mk.VII with its fixed ammunition which was entirely unsuitable for anything but the largest ships. While 65 degrees may not be a full dual purpose weapon it was a lot better than the older 4.7" mountings. The trial showed that the gun mounting was good enough for decent barrage firing against aircraft. The new mounting was made standard for all the A-F class ships.

The five full flotillas and their leaders slowly replaced the V&W classes in the prime roles within the RN. As the later G-N classes were completed the A-F were also replaced in the prime roles and took on lesser duties. With the outbreak of War in 1939 the ships of the flotillas were broken down into sub-flotillas and even down further to individual units as the destroyers were spread thinner and thinner due to losses. The A-F's were quickly relegated to convoy escorts and some (like the V&W's) were converted to long range escorts. such vessels normally carried the Convoy Escort Commander and were invaluable.

I will be adding more drawings of the differing variations as I get to them. I seem to have a lot to do at present.

The previous A-F class ships had featured a hybrid high angle 4.7" mounting. Various problems with loading the gun at high angle and various training angles made a new mounting with full dual purpose capabilities a must for future destroyer development. The design work started in 1932 for the new mounting and the first new single mounts were fitted to the latest G class destroyers. A full 80 degree elevation with the capability of all round loading, the new mounting in single and twin open mounts were followed by a twin turret version. (once I get everything sorted I think this gun/mounting will be the standard AA weapon replacing the 4.5" BD and UD mountings. A BD version used on the Queen Elizabeth with 4.7" guns will also be made.)

The G class were produced in three batches of four for 12 ships. No flotilla leader was produced for the G's as they were to be matched with a Tribal class Destroyer Leader to give 4 G's to one Tribal as half flotillas.

The RN, for some time, had been worried about the A-F class and prior classes of destroyers being outclassed by the destroyer construction in other countries. To provide a 'ship of force' that could back up the earlier destroyers, the Admiralty designed an 1850 ton (grew to over 2,000 tons over the length of building time of the class) ship with four twin 4.7" open mountings of the new DP model. Only one set of torpedo tubes was to be fitted to compensate for the 4th turret. To ameliorate the loss of a set of torpedoes, the Tribal Class were the first ships in the RN to be fitted with the new quintuple mounting. The new DP mounting proved a winner with much greater AA and Surface capabilities than the older low angle mountings.

The first three ships all received 'G' names as they were to be the flotilla leaders of the three half flotillas of G class destroyers. In total, 32 Tribal Class were completed between 1937 and 1946. 24 were completed for the RN, 4 for Canada, and Australia built four of their own.

Admiral Class Battleships.

Mihoshik has made a case for a different set of ships being available and built by the RN during the late 1930's. After a series of PM's these are the drawings he/we came up with to support a slightly different Fisherless timeline.

The replacement 'R' class now become the King George V class, at the 35,000 ton limit, with 5 ships being built. One complete in 1939 (KGV), two more in 1940 (Duke of York and Duke of Kent), one in 1941 (Prince of Wales) and the last in 1942 (Queen Victoria). Using the guns from the 'R' class means the ships have an average building time of 3 1/2 years.

The three new Admiral class ships wait an extra six months for the escalation clause to 45,000 ton ships due to the Japanese not ratifying the latest Treaty. The ships utilise the 12 spare triple 15" turrets that had been in storage from the uncompleted and converted Majestic class ships. This gives three 45,000 ton, 30 knot, ships armed with 12x15". These would be the Hood, Anson and Howe. (Keeping the Majestic class turrets means that the Nelson and Rodney need to be built with 16"). Utilising the older 1916 triple turrets speeds up the production considerably and the ships complete in 3 1/2 years. The first ship is laid down in late 1936 with completion in April/May 1940. The second completes in December 1940, while the third unit is delayed by the steel shortage of 1941 and does not complete till October 1942.

King George V class


Admiral Class



Mihoshik Said:

I guess that if they'd build three of those Admirals, they would be preceded by the King George V class which uses the old R-class turrets. While this is going on, the British get word from spies in Japan that the Yamato class is considerably more potent than expected. Unable to match the Japanese or Americans in caliber until years later, the British decide to build ships with more guns, and the Admiral class turns from four ships to three, with an increase in deck armor as well. I guess the Admirals would easily make 45,000 ton. The sheer throw weight and increase in ROF would negate at least some of the advantages of the bigger guns of the Yamato, although the British still think that Yamato will be armed with 16" rifles.

I think that works quite well. It's still going to be a bit of a shock, the Yamato, but the Admiral Class should at least have a reasonable chance of survival, with her improved armor scheme, and her vastly superior rate of fire.

And Bismarck or Tirpitz would just flat-out be doomed.

Like them especially the last 3 big 12 gun ships (who would indeed render the KM and RM in deep problems.

A few questions,
- about the numbers you have a start date of late 36 ? (what has happened to your WNT/LNT1/LNT2 ?)
- you also have 5 KVG and 3 Adm class building how do you make the belt and deck ? (or do you keep more capacity earlier on ?)
- why the overlap with KVG and ADM class (One in 1939, two in 1940, one in 1941, the last in 1942 (Queen Victoria) with the ADM 2 in 1940, the third unit delayed till 1942)
rather than finish the KVGs (in 39/40x4/41x1) then the ADMs (41/42x2) ? (ie why keep laying down the KVGs in your time line after you have gone to 45,000t limit ADMs ? or just cancel the last KVG ?)

LNT2 of 1935, if not signed by Japan by June of 1936, the 35,000 ton clause is defunct, and the escalation clause to 45,000 ton ships may be put in force.

So the KGV class lay down the planned 5 ships to replace the 'R's. Jan/36, Jan/36, Mar/36, Jun/36, Oct/36. Funds and material are allocated.

As an addition to those planned units, three Admiral class ships are added to counter the Japanese giants (notification from Mihoshiks spies). The guns are available, funds and material are added and granted. Laid down Dec/1936, Mar/37, Oct/37.

All eight ships are laid down prior to the outbreak of war and are more than 50% complete by 09/39.

It is not unusual for classes of capital ship to overlap in their completion dates. The 'R's and QE's overlapped during WW1, the KGV and Admirals are pretty much the same. Big solid slower, KGV to the faster and bigger Admirals. The Admirals are expected to go to the Far East, while the KGV's would be in home waters.

I think armour production would be a big bottleneck to production as well.
An ambitious programme but certainly a powerful one.

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Hood's Worklist
English Electric Canberra FD
Interwar RN Capital Ships
Super-Darings
Never-Were British Aircraft

Hood, I quite agree that armour could be a problem. That is part of the 1941 steel shortage that I interrupt building times with. The other thing I do, to try and alleviate the problem, is to use as much of the armour off the 'R' class as possible before scrapping the remains. Large strakes of 3-4" deck armour can be cut up for bulkheads and armour around the twin DP handling rooms and torpedo bulkheads etc. I try and use the 13" side armour (3 R belt lengths to make 2 KGV belts). anything to save time and money. That way I only need 2 sets of 13" and 3 sets of 15" belt armour. The deck armour would need to be all new for the eight ships.

600 ton Minesweepers/Escorts/Tenders

One of the clauses that interested the Admiralty from the treaties was the one where ships under 600 tons had no limit. Many countries tried to build useful units to that level but none were really good enough for those countries to want to mass produce any of them. (Real life French La Melpomene, UK Kingfisher corvettes). In my AU the RN sacrifices speed for sturdier building practices and using a common hull with two different sized diesel engine layouts for the different uses. The two types were both regarded as coastal units but during the war the Escort types ended up serving all over the world from duelling with E-Boats in the Channel to fighting U-Boats and aircraft on the Arctic Convoys. The three types were perfect for mass production and hundreds were produced all over the Commonwealth, with Australia, New Zealand, Canada and South Africa all producing units of this type. The basic M/s hull and equipment came in at 590 tons while the Escort version came in at 600 tons. The M/s and Tender units had 2,000bhp diesels for 16 knots while the Escorts had 2,750bhp diesels for 20 knots.

Chester Class Training Cruiser, Anti-aircraft ship.

While the Chester was an offshoot of the Town Class cruiser lineage, it was built and completed at the same time as the Cambrian class in the 1915-16 period. Both Birkenhead and Chester were completed to slightly different specifications. The main difference being in the propulsion systems, Birkenhead was of mixed coal/oil fired boilers giving 25,000shp for 25 knots, while the Chester was oil fired throughout which produced more power at 31,000shp for 26.5 knots. The Chester sailed into fame at Jutland with boy Cornwells VC. At wars end both ships were offered back for sale to Greece who declined. Birkenhead was sold in 1921 to Peru and replaced the old cruiser Almirante Grau. Chester was kept as part of the training squadron for 2 years and was then again offered for sale as the ship was a problem with the 5.5" guns while virtually all of the other RN light cruisers were armed with 6". What saved Chester from the scrapyard was the ordering of the 'G' class cruisers which were to be armed with the 5.5" gun.



The Chester soldiered on with the Training Fleet ships until 1935 when again its fate came under scrutiny. This time it was the uncertainty of the fate of the 1935 Treaty which saved the ship as it was earmarked like other cruisers of its age for conversion to an Anti-aircraft ship. The difference between the conversions was the bigger Chester was able to handle more equipment than the slightly smaller but faster 'C' classes. The Chester was armed with 8x4.7" of the new DP guns. The armament being one twin forward and aft and the other four single mountings on the beam. Two quad 2pd mountings and four twin Hispano 20mm cannons were the rest of the AA armament. The Hispano cannon proved to have too light a construction for the rigours of shipboard use and were later replaced with Oerlikons. The conversion to AA ships of both the 'G' class and Chester ended the 5.5" gun in RN use.

The Canard aircraft system had been under investigation in various countries since 1906. Britain had watched with interest but no action was taken till 1930 when the Fleet Air Arm took interest in a monoplane version for fighter/interceptor aircraft. The interest centred around the smaller size that could be achieved with a more powerful Canard configured aircraft. Various designs and prototypes were made and flown during the early 1930's culminating in the Fairey Eagle prototype of 1938.



Further prototypes and pre-production aircraft were under construction when WW2 broke out and all work was slowed on development while production was centred on those aircraft already under production. The aircraft completed were used for further development work and to defend the factory. The Fairey factory finally had a Canard design accepted for full production in 1943 which was the Fairey Falcon. (see earlier page in this thread.)