Shipbucket

- If you could fit 4 twins to a KVG hull why didn't they do it to the last 2 ships in OTL ? I think you need 5,000t more to cover it doesn't the who point of building Vanguard rather than a repeat KVG suggest it needs to be bigger (ok 1/2 of the size is for more speed ?). (Hood/Vanguard/Bismark all suggest a fast BB with protection can't be done with 4xtwin 15' on 35'000t) Not sure parliament really gets a vote (or at least they only vote on the options put in front of them by the Navy/Ministry and they didn't even consider it OTL. (remember that when these are ordered you are looking at 20+ years life and supporting the industry) They are only excellent due to age, most 15' or 16' guns form WW2 are better and lighter (well potentially if you get detailed bugs out) Don't think you can add thickness ie 2 layers don't just add up to to combined thickness and WW1 RN belts are something like 25% less good than WW2 built stuff. (but still think they are more 1940-41 than 39) Who would this Hood be with ? (I'm presuming that the RN wouldn't fight faire if they could help it) with 2 ships with working guns properly worked up you need very bad luck not to end up with Bismarck losing.

JSB:
I did all those KGV designs from the information provided by Smurf. So I am well aware what could be done with a KGV design. If you read the timeline on the KGV development the 1935 designs start at 35,000 tons. Once the Japanese fail to ratify the Treaty, the same 35,000 ton design has another 2-3,000 tons of additional steel work added into the basic design. The first three ships were too far advanced to do more than that but according to Admiralty records the last two (Anson and Howe) were looked at to increase the armament to 16" with the 16A and 16B designs. But as with all new designs it is easier, cheaper and quicker to follow the existing design. The next design, the Lion Project, was designed from the start at 45,000 tons and 16", it is that design that the Vanguard is an offshoot from. It is quite possible to fit the four twin 15" on the same hull as a KGV, the internals need to be reworked, the fore turrets can be mounted slightly further forward to balance the weight (lighter than twin/quad or two triples) and everything moves forward that amount to allow the space for the two twins to be fitted aft.

With the armoured belt I am not adding layers. Say the 'R' class belt is 300 feet long and the required belt on my Admirals needs to be 450 feet. I would need 3 belts of armour off the 'R's to make up the two lengths of belt for each of the Admirals. Weld the joins and shape the belts on, job done. So if I do 3 ships that way I use 9 belts of armour out of a possible 10 available. The last two ships would need purpose built belts. The 13" armour is the same belt as on the Queen Elizabeth class, and that was not changed during their rebuilds, so I would think it is good enough for what I want. During WW2 the Mediterranean Fleet ships had no problems going into battle against the 15" Littorios.

Ark Royal completed in 12/1938 with 6x8 2pd guns. So my lot is not unreasonable. Probably remove the turret tops as that was really a WW2 thing but I am lazy and can't be bothered.

As to which ship is with 'Hood' at Denmark Strait, take your pick of any of the 3 Majestic type, or one of the new 9x15 KGV's.

Added a few more armament variations to the MTB/MGB range. The first one is the standard Airfix layout. Once I start adding to the armament with bigger guns I start dropping torpedo tubes to compensate.

If you look at it a certain direction this design could easily fit into the original fisherless au as purely an R class replacement built just before the KGV. It could be said that the treaty is allowing the replacement of some of the older ships come 1930 or so and this is the product of the replacement of the Rs.

Magnificent little MTB's and another variation comes to mind, and that is with the 4.5"/8cwt coastal forces gun.

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Thank you Kim for the crest

"Never fear to try on something new. Remember that the Titanic was built by professionals, and the Ark by an amateur"

One class of vessel that had proved useful during WW1 had been the Monitor, gunnery support vessels. At the end of the war the ones that had proved not so good were hastily scrapped. This left only the two Erebus class ships as effective units of the type. The conversion of the two Lion class battlecruisers to hybrid seaplane carriers left four twin 13.5" turrets that could be used to build a new class of monitors. They were to be 9,000 ton vessels, and with a maximum speed of 15 knots. A gesture of 3.5" armour around the magazines and propulsion system was made. It was the armoured deck that was given full measure with a 3" deck being fitted. Because of their speed, the four vessels were to be spread around the Empire to provide support where necessary. The first unit HMS Skirmisher was completed in 1928, the second HMS Sentinel in 1929, the third HMS Saracen in 1931 and lastly HMS Scourge in 1932. One was to be based at Malta and Singapore with the last two kept in home waters.




All four were lost during WW2:
Skirmisher, in 1940 off the Dunkirk beaches, by Stuka dive bombers.
Sentinel, in 1942 in support of the Dieppe landings by JU-88 bombers
Saracen, in 1943 in support of the Anzio landings by glider bomb.
Scourge, in 1942 trying to reach Australia through the Lombok Strait, torpedoed by Japanese destroyers.

Nice MTBs.
The Skirmisher is a nice drawing too. Looks nicely updated from the Great War era vessels and has an authentic 1920s look to it.

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Hood's Worklist
English Electric Canberra FD
Interwar RN Capital Ships
Super-Darings
Never-Were British Aircraft

Adventure Class Minelayers

These two minelayers (Adventure and Arrogant) were supposed to be designed for offensive minelaying. However by the time they got to sea in the late 20's their speed of 28 knots was nowhere near enough for the job. What had made that role obsolete for them was the airplane. The ships could no longer get to the enemy coast, lay the minefield, and leave again without being spotted. Once a minelayer is spotted, it is then obvious to an enemy that a field has been laid and is then searched for with its minesweepers and cleared.

These two ships were used to lay the major minefields on the out break of war. The fields from Scotland to Scapa, Scapa to Faeroes etc, Dover through the Channel, East coast of UK. What made these ships great for that work was the heavy AA capability. The original 4.7" had been removed in 1937 and replaced with the new twin 4" mountings. Working in those confined waters they were close enough to RAF airfields for fighters to be on call. Once these major fields had been laid they could be maintained by converted auxiliaries. With the huge space of the mine deck they were useful to run urgent supplies to obscure bases that could not be reached except by naval vessel.

Interesting looking enough. I do hope that we'll see Manxman and her sisters appear, that or their spin off in a Fisherless world. 40 knot goodness!

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AU Projects: | Banbha et al. | New England: The Divided States
Blood and Fire

That is next on the list B.B.