Shipbucket

I would also look at,

HMS tiger 11,000t and 2x2 6' and 3x2 3'/70 716 men
USS Worcester 13,000t (17,997 full) and 6x2 6' and 5x2 3'/50 1,560 men

I think your cheap ship is still not very cheap ?

I have done some small update on the drawing of kruz class as build. now she have an improved 57 mm armament, now she have 14 single 57 mm guns. where the center turret have only an broadside firing arc. but now I wonder if she can get enough lead up in the air...

I can only see 6 places I can add additional 57 mm guns:

- on the forward deck, under the forward 57 mm turret just in front of the forward flank turret.
- above and between the aft flank turret.
- remove the sheltering over the aft deck just aft for the aft flank turret, and place an 57 mm there.



Kruz class, Haram Heavy cruiser laid down 1953

Displacement:
29 000 t light; 29 698 t standard; 34 926 t normal; 39 109 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(859,96 ft / 837,99 ft) x 91,50 ft (Bulges 91,86 ft) x (30,48 / 33,18 ft)
(262,12 m / 255,42 m) x 27,89 m (Bulges 28,00 m) x (9,29 / 10,11 m)

Armament:
12 - 6,10" / 155 mm 60,0 cal guns - 100,99lbs / 45,81kg shells, 450 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1953 Model
1 x Triple mount on centreline, forward deck forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
3 x Triple mounts on centreline, aft deck aft
1 raised mount aft - superfiring
24 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm 60,0 cal guns - 0,00lbs / 0,00kg shells, 1 500 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1953 Model
8 x Twin mounts on side ends, evenly spread
6 raised mounts - superfiring
4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1 212 lbs / 550 kg
Main DC/AS Mortars
12 - 44,09 lbs / 20,00 kg Depth Charges + 120 reloads - 2,598 t total
in Depth charge throwers
2nd DC/AS Mortars
12 - 44,09 lbs / 20,00 kg Depth Charges + 120 reloads - 2,598 t total
in Depth charge throwers

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8,00" / 203 mm 502,80 ft / 153,25 m 11,48 ft / 3,50 m
Ends: 5,00" / 127 mm 335,18 ft / 102,16 m 11,48 ft / 3,50 m
Upper: 5,00" / 127 mm 502,80 ft / 153,25 m 8,00 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
3,00" / 76 mm 502,80 ft / 153,25 m 27,37 ft / 8,34 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 28,00 ft / 8,53 m

- Hull Bulges:
0,00" / 0 mm 0,00 ft / 0,00 m 0,00 ft / 0,00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6,00" / 152 mm 2,00" / 51 mm 1,00" / 25 mm

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 3,00" / 76 mm
Forecastle: 3,00" / 76 mm Quarter deck: 3,00" / 76 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 8,00" / 203 mm, Aft 8,00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 4 shafts, 143 972 shp / 107 403 Kw = 32,00 kts
Range 15 000nm at 18,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 9 410 tons

Complement:
1 276 - 1 660

Cost:
£12,522 million / $50,088 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 8 tons, 0,0 %
- Weapons: 8 tons, 0,0 %
Armour: 8 526 tons, 24,4 %
- Belts: 3 506 tons, 10,0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1 528 tons, 4,4 %
- Armament: 94 tons, 0,3 %
- Armour Deck: 3 031 tons, 8,7 %
- Conning Towers: 368 tons, 1,1 %
Machinery: 3 444 tons, 9,9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 16 771 tons, 48,0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5 926 tons, 17,0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 0,7 %
- Hull below water: 50 tons
- Bulge void weights: 50 tons
- Hull above water: 50 tons
- On freeboard deck: 50 tons
- Above deck: 50 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
0 lbs / 0 Kg = NaN x 6,1 " / 155 mm shells or 3,9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
Metacentric height 5,3 ft / 1,6 m
Roll period: 16,8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,12
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,45

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak, low quarterdeck ,
a normal bow and large transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,521 / 0,536
Length to Beam Ratio: 9,12 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 33,19 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 19,50 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20,00 %, 43,50 ft / 13,26 m, 32,97 ft / 10,05 m
- Forward deck: 15,00 %, 32,97 ft / 10,05 m, 32,97 ft / 10,05 m
- Aft deck: 45,00 %, 24,51 ft / 7,47 m, 24,51 ft / 7,47 m
- Quarter deck: 20,00 %, 15,98 ft / 4,87 m, 18,50 ft / 5,64 m
- Average freeboard: 26,86 ft / 8,19 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 113,8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 215,4 %
Waterplane Area: 54 190 Square feet or 5 034 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 223 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 206 lbs/sq ft or 1 004 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1,55
- Longitudinal: 1,79
- Overall: 1,58
Cramped machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Any reason not to use a twin 57mm ?

Unless you are wanting economy's of scale with a single mount that you are going to use on smaller ships of your fleet a twin would save space (and weight/crew) per gun (and you will only be engaging as many aircraft as you have directors anyway).(unless you radar is on mount )

Say 10 twins, (4 at ends) then 6 (3 on each side staked with higher mount in middle) ?

After I draw the ship I came to the same conclusion, when building a ship this large, there should be a problem designing a special version, or... a modified version of the single 57 mm turret, making it to a twin. so I'll have a go at it.

here is at least the turret, with directors that can be used or modified to be used with it, if the turret doesn't have it own system.




(The 57 mm turret is the universal turret in the fleet next to the 76 mm, 57 mm is often used by Haram coast guard. The Navy use the mostly on small frigates, corvettes, large combat boat, and as secondary turret on some of the larger destroyer. 40 mm turrets in Haram is often WW2 relics that have been rebuild and upgraded and mounted on various ships, specially small fast combat boat and some coast guard vessels)

And there was the drawing updated. BTW, I took it a little over the top, now she have 12 twin 57 mm turrets...

Now she is purely an gun cruiser, but I am wondering, missile era... what can I do. if she is build in between 1953-1960

Well you could,
Scrap her as she get to expensive to run due to steam/large conscript crew?
Keep her for guns ? (with only small SAM defences added, Tartar ?)
Rebuild her for Talos/Terrier/Sea Slug ? (IE USN rebuilds)
Rebuild her as a Helicopter ASW ships ? (IE HMS Tiger)

Not sure that any of the rebuilds are that god an idea from a cost standpoint but they will look nice

There are two ship in the class, so let us say they just get and light SAM defense system like the tartar, and the aft deck modified for taking helicopter. Then later on mothballed for later be scrapped.

there are many smaller cruiser in Haram in the 160-190 meter size that are better to modified to an Terrier ship. But I can make many never were version of the Heavy cruiser.

Hi Heuhen,

I do have a question, if that's OK - I note that the fore-and-aft 57mm are set us as wing mounts rather than centreline mounts - could you not save a little weight by landing two of your twins and setting those up on the centreline? I didn't spot anything actually on the centreline that would seem to stop this - are you expecting to be firing on both broadsides at once?

Regards,
Adam

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NSWE: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5695

Well I could, but I feel this make here "unique". for a ship this size, weight issue aren't that big. The reason for there size is to have many guns, space for abnormal large engine and fuel capacity for be able to follow an CV at flank speed, but also have the range for keep going at high cruise speed longer than other cruiser.

but the funny thing those guns have an better arc of firing than if the was mounted on center line. and when they are firing they would rarely fire broadside, they would fire up in the sky... because an attacking aircraft are up there not on the water...
The class is an Escort for a CV mostly in an fleet, so it is excepted from the class to cover the entire sky zone inside here "boxsphere" at any time, what ever direction fighter/bomber are coming from, she must at the same time be able able to get as much lead in the air as possible. So as designed she operate with two air-defense "box/sphere":

- long range air defense "box/sphere". That is covered by 6" triple guns.
- medium to short range air defense "box/sphere". That will be covered by the 57 mm only.

heuhen, those directors are all one or 2 generation newer then your 57mm gun. in addition, the 57mm gun is not stabilised (otherwise it would be much bigger, look at the bofors mounting on the dutch cruisers) so you might have trouble with the accuracy (although the stabilisation system on the cruisers had some issues with reliability)

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