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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: Purple ChallengePosted: January 31st, 2015, 12:23 pm
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I have used the UK MRS-3 directors which the UK used for everything from Sea Cat to the auto 3" & 6". I figured those coupled with the other search radar would be sufficient for the Osa-M and the 100mm guns. I have used the MRS-6 for the 152mm guns. What I have done is to use UK electronics to run the Russian equipment which should be possible.

From the comments made I have dated the ship too early. It should probably be 1974-75, I was not certain how long the Zhdanov (Sverdlov) class remained in service. I should have had an early look at Wiki, which tells me the ships were retained well into the mid to late 80's and even into the early 90's. Most were completed mid-to-late 50's so they would not have been sold off as early as I thought.

I will re-date the drawing to the Chileans getting the ship in 1975 (OSA-M (NATO reporting name SA-N-4 "Gecko") was introduced in 1972) which should also bring the Kamov-25's into the time frame as well.


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superboy
Post subject: Re: Purple ChallengePosted: January 31st, 2015, 1:56 pm
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This is a good Challenge and i have a question, can i use Chinese + Western Weapons & Sensors ?

i know many Chinese products came from France ,Italy or England, but i will have 2 parts that original came from Russia (AK-47 and RPG :mrgreen:)


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Hood
Post subject: Re: Purple ChallengePosted: February 1st, 2015, 10:33 am
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Nigel,
You don't need 965 and 984 on the same ship, if you have the giant 984, then you don't need the 965.

Blimey, my old Ukrainian SSR parts sheet! That was one AU I never did finish. I did think about a reboot but it'll probably remain unfinished.

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eswube
Post subject: Re: Purple ChallengePosted: February 1st, 2015, 12:01 pm
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@Krakatoa
Forgive me, but I really don't think that using MRS-3 for Osa would work.


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waritem
Post subject: Re: Purple ChallengePosted: February 1st, 2015, 11:19 pm
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The Light Cruiser Chong Qing (重慶)

Chong Qing began and served most of its military career as the Royal Navy ship HMS Aurora, the last of the four Arethusa Class light cruisers designed in the mid-30s as replacements for the World War I-era A and B Class cruisers.

With the sea war in the Mediterranean winding down in 1944, the Chinese government approached the British about contributing vessels towards the formation of a token navy that could participate in the final defeat of Japan, in much the same manner as the British had helped create for Poland and Norway. A tentative agreement was made, and Aurora was earmarked along with seven other ships for that purpose. However, with the end of the war in the Pacific, the British Government saw no further need to subsidize the undertaking and attempted to cancel the agreement, much over the objections of the Chinese. There then began a period of intensive negotiations until an agreement was finally announced in November 1945, in which the British agreed to turn over Chunking permanently, along with a five-year lease of the destroyer HMS Mendip, in addition to a few smaller harbor vessels already in Chinese service.

Over 600 crewmen were recruited for the ship and dispatched to England for training in three groups starting in December. Among them was the 18-year old Bi-Yuan, a member of the Chinese Communist party since 1943, who had infiltrated the crew with the intent of eventually bringing ship and crew over to his side. Most of the engineering staff for the ship was recruited directly in England from among merchant seamen there at the time, with a promise that they would receive above-standard pay scales (much to the resentment of regular sailors) for joining the new ROC Navy. The collected crewmen then began a training period which went on for over two years, while the Chinese Civil War sprang back into full force, with the situation for ROC forces steadily growing worse over time. During the training period, Bi-Yuan and his later co-conspirator Wang Yi-ching were able to recruit a conspiratorial underground cell of about 10 sailors and officers from among the waiting crew.

ROCS Chong Qing, along with HMS Medip (renamed ROCS Lingfu), was finally commissioned on May 19, 1948, the Chinese having paid a total of 10 million pounds to refurbish the ship and support the crew in England while training. The crew consisted of 631 officers and men. The commander of the ship was Captain Deng Zhaoxiang, a member of the “Fuzhian clique” of professional naval officers, as opposed to the former Army officers of the “Whampoa clique”, who occupied many of the ROC Navy’s administrative posts, and who maintained a more personal loyalty to Chiang Kai-shek. Captain Deng had been in the navy since age 11, and was a graduate of the Chinese Whampoa and Fujian naval academies, and had also spent five years in England at the British Naval Academy.

The ship departed England on May 26 by way of Malta, Suez and Singapore for the trip to China, stopping at many ports on the way for public relations purposes. With the political and military situation in post-war China deteriorating rapidly, the conditions for the long-exiled crew were far from perfect. Pay was intermittent and loyalty to the ROC side became ever more questionable as the power of the PLA increased. Upon her first stop in Chinese waters at Hong Kong on July 29, 1948, somewhere above 20 members of the crew, including 1/3 of the engineering ratings, jumped ship soon after she docked. The ship continued on to the ROC capital of Nanjing with a two-shift emergency engineering arrangement, and arrived on August 14, 1948. She was visited there by Chiang Kai-shek, ROC Navy CIC Admiral Gui and many other high ranking members of the military command. Morale was further affected when the news filtered out that the ship was carrying the emergency operational reserves for the ROC navy in its hold.

Although Chong Qing was planned for deployment in the Bay of Bohai to help intercept PLA junk-based troop re-supply missions, the military situation was so serious that the ship was immediately thrown into efforts to support the retreating ROC land forces along the Shandong Peninsula and the North China coast. All through September and October, the ship provided naval gun support to the shore-based defending forces, at one point almost running aground in the process. Relationships between Captain Deng and the ROC naval command were not good, with the Captain at one point countermanding orders given without his authority by senior ROC officials on board observing the battles.

By November 1948, with the end of the successful PLA fall offensive, the ship was back in Shanghai, assigned the missions of guarding the Yangtze River crossings (now essentially the Civil War’s front line) and keeping an eye on other ROC naval units who were similarly tasked. After the fall of Mukden in November and the complete defeat of ROC forces in Northern China, the eventual victor of the conflict was now clear. Crew members began to make mental calculations for their personal odds of survivability. Additional members of the crew deserted (up to 200 by one account) and were replaced by soldiers and dock workers from the adjacent Jiangnan Shipyard.

It was in this context that Bi-Yuan and Wang Yi-ching and the other co-conspirators stepped up their efforts to approach other sympathetic crew members and implement their plot. A liberation committee was formed and an elaborate plan worked up for taking over the ship. Not unexpectedly, word of their efforts leaked out, and news reached the Chong Qing’s conspirators in return that Captain Deng would shortly be relieved of command by an officer with closer ties to the Whampoa clique. Realizing that they were in imminent danger of being arrested and shot, the conspirators met on the night of February 24, 1949 and resolved to implement their plan. They then broke into the ship’s small arms locker, armed themselves and approached Captain Deng at gunpoint, demanding that he either get the ship under way for a PLA-controlled port, or look on as they sabotaged the ship with a home-made charge consisting of fused 6-inch shells.

After considerable argument, Captain Deng finally agreed, and the ship, with a crew of 547 officers and men, cast away from its mooring at about 03:00 hours on February 25, without announcement to authorities on shore and in blacked-out conditions. The following morning, the conspirators assembled the crew and announced their full actions to considerable consternation, not so much from any residual loyalty to the ROC, but due to the fact that most crew members’ families were still on the other side of the front line. A counter-revolutionary group of about ten officers threatened to take back the ship, but bloodshed was avoided when Captain Deng, probably realizing that regardless of outcome, his career in the ROC navy was at an end, agreed to come over to the PLA side.

Chong Qing then continued north towards a PLA occupied port. The ship arrived at Yantai on the Shandong Peninsula at 6:00 AM on February 26th, flying a specially made red star flag to announce its new allegiance. Argument then resumed over an eventual course of action, with authorities in town encouraging the crew to come ashore and hand over the ship to the PLA. However, a compromise was reached to maintain the ship under the command of its existing officers and crew, and the captured ROC funds (in the form of silver coin) stored in the ship’s hold were broken into to reward all crew members with an immediate cash bonus. On February 27th, word came directly from Mao Zedong that this arrangement was acceptable to the PLA, and that local commanders should work with Captain Deng as a full ally.

Meanwhile, on March 2nd, an ROC reconnaissance plane located the Chong Qing and bombing runs by the ROC air force began, in the form high altitude bombing runs by ROC B-24 bombers. Although the initial attack was unsuccessful, the event caused renewed acrimony among the crew, with the ROC loyalists threatened to take over the ship and put her to sea if the Captain did not do so himself. The PLA faction then called on support from troops on shore to come on board and secure the ship, and a crisis was averted. However, Captain Deng did agree that a move in position would be prudent, so the ship set sail for the PLA-occupied port of Huludao in North China, arriving that evening after her one and only sortie under PLA command. Upon arrival, the ship was secured by several thousand PLA troops and all crew members were ordered to remain on board, to be reorganized and “reeducated” by political officials from the PLA. On March 15, 1949, the ship was officially incorporated into the PLA Navy, which had previously been in existence without warships.
However, after several weeks, ROC planes again located the ship and resumed their bombing runs on March 19th. With the ship out of fuel and unable to respond to these high-altitude attacks, options for survival were limited. The crew complement was reduced to about 100 men to reduce casualties in anticipation of further attacks. The first one was unsuccessful, but an attack on March 21st resulted in a bomb hit on the stern of the ship, which killed 6 men and injured 10 and caused significant damage. The rest of the crew then abandoned ship, and PLA authorities came to the conclusion that ultimately protecting her from destruction was not possible while fighting was still in progress. An order was then given to scuttle the ship for future salvage. Equipment was removed to the degree possible and machine parts given an extra coating of grease. Sea cocks were then opened and the Chong Qing was allowed to sink at the pier, eventually capsizing to starboard in 11 meters of water at a 92 degree angle, with her port hull side completely above water and showing no damage.

The loss of Chong Qing had an immediate impact on the outcome of the civil war. When the PLA spring offensive began on April 20th 1949, the remaining ROC naval forces were ordered to mount an effort to disrupt the PLA forces crossing the Yangtze. The futility of dong so was, however, was demonstrated when the British frigate HMS Amethyst was badly damaged with heavy casualties while attempting to run past the same PLA positions. Rather than make the attempt, and without the Chong Qing available to enforce the orders, the entire Shanghai flotilla of one destroyer, three destroyer escorts, one gunboat, five landing ships and eight auxiliaries defected to the PLA side on April 23rd, sealing the fate of Nanjing and Shanghai in May.

With the end of active hostilities on the Chinese mainland in 1950, efforts began to salvage and raise the vessel. A Russian technical advisory group was dispatched to assist the PLA navy engineering battalion from Qingdao, and the project got under way in April 1951. The effort was hampered by the fact that the bow of the sunken ship was only 13 meters from the pier, and efforts had to be made to attach cables and drag the ship further away before it could be righted. Once that was accomplished, hull integrity was found to be good, and the ship was raised on June 13, 1951, ahead of both schedule and budget. Chong Qing was then towed to the shipyard at Dalian on June 18, 1951, where dry dock facilities were available.

After a thorough evaluation, the Russian technical team in charge of the effort concluded they were unable to support the British-designed weapon and sensor systems. All the UK sourced guns, range finder and radar were removed and Russian material was setup instead. Three 130mm/58 SM-2-1 twin turrets replaced the former 152/50 BL Mk, four 37mm/67 V11M twin turret were substituted to the 102/45 QF Mk V. ASM capacity were added with 4 RBU-1200. And, most of all, six KT-97 launchers were fed with CSS-N-1Scrubbrush (Chinese made P-15 Termit).
Those weapons were supported by a Yakor-M2, two Kolonka, a MARS-12 passive sonar, and a rangout. A P-12 Spoon Rest Early warning radar was also added. The Steam turbine was found to be serviceable after a deep revising. A fully enclosed bridge was created. To support the Spoon Rest a new forward mast is build.

The ship is commissioned in 1958 as new admiral ship of the People's Liberation Army Navy. During the following years it mainly fulfilled naval exercise in the Yellow sea to avoid the continued naval skirmishes taking place with ROC forces. However, despite many caution, the ship was badly hit by a Bat launched from a ROC PB4Y-2 in 1951. The guided bomb destroyed two KT-97, teared down the main mast and front funnel. Fortunately the ship had launch its Termit two hours before on a practice target. It was operational again six month later.

This incident convinced the communist admiralty they needed a air protection dome for their fleet.
As the popular republic had already splited with USSR, Russian would not provide new weapon system, nor technical assistance. The only available SAM was the SA-2 Guideline who performed successfully protection for the mainland. A launcher was design using data from both west and Russian systems. The result was quite similar to the Russian Volkhov. Requiring a Fan Song radar, the system was huge , so it was decided the only ship big enough to handle it was the Chongqing itself.
The aft funnel was lowered to clear the field for the new radar who was installed on a new pyramidal mast. A front 130mm turret was removed and replaced by two 37 mm ones. The former RBU-1200 were replaced by two HDA-62, a new Chinese rocket launcher inspired by Russian one and using ordnance derived from the initial depth charges.
The ship went out of the dry docks in 1963.

[ img ]

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JSB
Post subject: Re: Purple ChallengePosted: February 2nd, 2015, 1:09 pm
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Like the long story :D


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waritem
Post subject: Re: Purple ChallengePosted: February 2nd, 2015, 1:37 pm
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@JSB

Thanks you!
I was really starting to fear that i should have shortened it.
I appologize for the one who think so................
I found it very interresting. It's real until "the Russian technical team in charge of the effort concluded that the estimated cost to bring the admittedly obsolescent ship back into service was about 200 million rubles, an enormous cost for war-devastated China".
(http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... index.html)

This story is the reason why i retained the "red star flag" as un "honorific flag" for the cruiser.

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waritem
Post subject: Re: Purple ChallengePosted: February 2nd, 2015, 1:53 pm
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@Krakatoa

To me, a good thing would be to get inspiration from the Ordzhonikidze who was "sold to the Indonesian Navy in 1962, recommissioned as KRI Irian in 1963; sold for scrap to Taiwan in 1972".

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eswube
Post subject: Re: Purple ChallengePosted: February 2nd, 2015, 8:53 pm
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As for the 1958 version it looks much better now.
As for the 1963 one, there is a problem. Bit of my fault as I promised to search for it earlier. :(
SM-64 launcher had the missiles stored vertically underneath (which meant it had to be really tall), not in front/behind it.
[ img ]
(Second stage had liquid fuel already in fuel tanks, but oxidizer was filled only immediately before launch)


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waritem
Post subject: Re: Purple ChallengePosted: February 2nd, 2015, 10:04 pm
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@eswube
Very interresting detail, should be useful for other project.
I didn't knew the exact arrangement of the loading system but suspected it was under, as there was no storage in front or behind the launcher.
However this is not really a problem for this ship, as the system is a chinese AU design.
In my scenario chinese designers had only some visual informations of the Volkhov launcher.
The only problem would be if there was a technical need for storage the SA-2 verticaly (maybe because of it liquid fuel).

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