Shipbucket

Сlarification: the PCW abbreviation means, that this ship is a part of Pacific Confederacy World - AU, where the Peru-Bolivian Confederacy won the war with Chile in 1836-1839 and became a major (relatively, of course) South American power.



After the World War II, the Japan were thoroughly demilitarized by the US occupation goverment. The IJN and IJA were disbanded; almost all survived warships and submarines were taken as war reparations. Moreover, the few Japanese factories that still was able to produced weapons were closed, and their equipment scrapped. The United States military wasn't really interested in mostly inferior japan technology and her creators. Japanese military engineers and designers , who have lost their opportunity to use their talents in Japan, were forced to seek work in other countries.

The Japan Empire and the Pacific Confederacy always (at least since 1858) in good terms to each other. There were Japanese quarters in Confederacy's cities. And there were Confederate enclaves on the Okinawa and Osumi. Even during the war, when the Confederacy were on UN side, and the Japan joined the Axis, those to nations never declared war to each other (despite the US pressure on the Lima). So, it is not surprising that many Japanese military designers emigrated to South America after the war.

The japan technology, that was inferior from the US point of view, were greatly superior by Pacific Confederacy therms. The japan engineering teams make a great work in improving the Confederacy industry; especially aircraft and naval engineering. For the Japanese corporations, sending their military Japanese corporations to South America was a perfect way to preserve the expirience for the future efforts. By the covert agreements with the "Mistubishi", "Nakajima" (ect.) and the Confederacy Goverment, many prototypes and specifications of late-war japan technology - including the "Nakajima" J9Y "Kikka" jet fighter, "Ke-Go" infrared guided bomb and others - were exported to South America as "scrap metal".

== Project C-58 ==

In early 1950th, the Pacific Confederacy Navy started to think about two new cruisers with effective anti-aircraft armament for the carrier escort. The existing cruisers - build before or during the WWII - did not meet the requirements of modern naval warfare.

The team of constructors (supplemented by the japanese engineers from the former Kure naval arsenal) proposed a new cruiser project in 1952. It should be a 8200t warship, armed with the new dual-purpose 155mm guns with automatic reloaders, based on the both the naval 15.5cm/60 3-rd year type -

http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNJAP_61-60_3ns.htm

- and the Type 5 15cm anti-air gun:

http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/5aa.htm

The initial project was sheduled to be build by the Confederacy shipyards. But in 1952, the Japan National Safety Forces (that became the National Self-Defense Forces) were created by the permission of the occupation goverment, and the Confederacy now were able to have the direct technological and industrial help from Japan.

In 1954, two cruisers were laid up: one ("Protectore Satida") in the Mitsubishi Nagasaki shipyards, and the second ("Protectore D'Encasti") in the Callao Naval Arsenal. Both ships were build with the japanese-build power plants and weapon systems.

== Description ==

They have the same powerplant composition, but the different hull, wider in the aft. Their speed, so, was no more than 32 knots, but it fitted perfectly to their main function - protection of aircraft carriers.

But their weapons were much more effective. The "Protectore Satida"-class were armed with two three-guns turrets, each armed with three 155mm/60 dual-purpose, rapid-fire guns. By the use of unitary munition and automatic reload systems, the achieved rate of fire was a 12-15 rounds per minute! The great elevation rate make possible highly effective anti-aricraft fire, and the maximum range was about 30000 meters (18000 AA ceiling). Each turret has her own Type 100 director, combined with Type 14 5m rangefinder and target aquisition radar.

The secondary armament consisted of the 25th Year Type 40mm/56 guns; the fully-enclosed japanese modification of UK's STAGG "Bofors" mount with the same gun. Six double systems were positioned on the sides of the ships; four on weather deck, and two on the forward superstructure.

The electronic equipment of this ships were mostly british by origin. They were equipped with cutting-edge Type 984 3D radar (that cost a awful sum for the goverment, and delayed the completion), supplemental Type 992 air search radar, type 974 surface search radar and UA-10/UA-13 electronic warfare station.

Armored belt was about 50 mm thick, and protected the magazines and the machinery from small-calibre weapons and partially from HE shells. The deck was about 40 millimeters, and has an additional splinter desk over the machines.

The "Protectore Satida"-class cruisers were build with the helicopter hangar (the first ships, specifically designed to have that), but the design of the hangar was somewhat unsuccessful. The helicopter pad were placed on the top of the hangar, and the built-in elevator transported the helicopter in and out. There was a place for two helicopters inside the hangar, but is was rarely used, due to the fact that the system was prone to jam's, and in the major 1964-1965 refit were replaced.

== Service ==

The first ship, "Protectore Satida", were completed in 1956, and the other, "Protectore D'Encasti", only in 1958. By this time, they were considered "the most powerfull light cruisers in the world", and were generally assepted as superior to both the RN "Tiger"-class cruiser and USN "Worchester"-class cruiser. The "Nautical Almanach" described them as "handy, perfectly modern cruisers, second to no one in the world" and the admiral N.G. Kuznetzov noticed that they "would be able to shred 68-bis to the ribbons". It may be some exaggeration, but only a small: the C-58 cruisers were the last and most powerfull gun cruisers, build for Confederacy.

_________________
Serve the Nation! Be striped!

a few questions arise
- what exactly is the use of sponsons on this ship? there seems to be enough deckspace to fit them within the own beam of the ship, so I do not see the need for them.
- was the guidance unit on the 'turret STAAG' still on the turret? the british moved away from this practise because the maintenance of the guidance, subject to vibrations of the gun proved to be difficult, so they moved it away from the mounting. a turret would not solve this problem, so why not split the mount and the guidance and get an lighter and more effective gun?
- how did they get the RoF from the main guns from 5 to 12-15 on (as far as I can see) no modifications on the turret? I mean in similar circumstances (prewar mounting 150mm DP updated postwar) the bofors 150mm M42 were upgraded from 6 rounds to 10-15 while this was a much more modern design, already semi-auto from the beginning) while the mountings already proved to be lower spec then originally designed when used in the war (according to navweaps)
- where does the helicopter land, and why is it shown flying when your ship seems to have an hangar
- based on the oyodo hull, I do not think you have the weight reserve aft for the aft 155 turret.
- in addition, I do not think you have the stability reserve for that radar.

_________________
Drawings are credited with J.Scholtens
I ask of you to prove me wrong. Not say I am wrong, but prove it, because then I will have learned something new.
Shipbucket Wiki admin

In theory yes, but i'm thinking in therms of wider sectors for them.
Well, i didn't want to go to far away from the original STAAG. I... didn't like perfect solution. They seems unnatural.
You are probably right, i should redesing the turrets. Even with the completely new guns, they should need more space for autoloaders. But they use the unitary rounds, so they need only one elevator per gun.
Er, on the hangar roof. There are elevator in the roof. I know that it's not a good idea, but i insisted that they do such a mistake. After it became clear for PCN, that they made a huge mistake with this "original, compact idea", they would remade the hangar tp a more conventional design.
Hm. The UK cruiser-destroyer project were designed to carry them, or i made a mistake?

Anyway, thank you for the poins to think about! Now i see more clearly, that the design need some... redesign (forgive me for the tautology)

_________________
Serve the Nation! Be striped!

I personally think that the drawbacks outweigh the benefits of the sponsoned guns in this case. but hey, your ship
I am wondering though why you would not want to go to far from the original STAAG, as the mounting was IIRC replaced in new construction by better systems. in addition, making it a turret would make it heavier and thus less precise and slower in practise
that gun loading system sounds good (IIRC that would be similar to that of the bofors 150 M42 loading system) so I think we agree about what is required for the turrets.
for the helicopter: flight deck railing (foldable) on the hangar and showing the helicopter half 'submerged' on the elevator would show how this works on first sight also, wondering, does the helicopter land on top of the elevator or is the elevator only part of the hangar structure and can it keep more helicopters inside the hangar?
some of the cruiser destroyer designs were supposed to carry that radar IIRC, yes, (http://www.shipbucket.com/images.php?di ... 201951.gif) but seeing that you used the odoyo hull, you are also limited to odoyo stability and weights. everything you put on the hull that is heavier makes that something else should be lighter, and even when your weights check out that way, when a lot of the weight is up top (for example that radar) you might loose stability. see it this way: the center of gravity of the ship should stay in the same place, as all other parameters are dependent on the hull shape which you have fixed beforehand.

that said, I have not done any design in the last 2 years or so I found correct on the first try, reworking it is almost always required.

_________________
Drawings are credited with J.Scholtens
I ask of you to prove me wrong. Not say I am wrong, but prove it, because then I will have learned something new.
Shipbucket Wiki admin

Yes, of course, but i was thinking in therms of anti-nuclear protections. The open mounts is pretty vunerable for both the overpressure, heat and residual radiation. The enclosed mounts gave at least SOME protection (and in 1950th any navy worth his water was thinking about the possibility of atomic attack).
Absolutely.
Hm... I didn't consider this! Than your for advise! If only the part of hangar roof is the elevator, so in would be really possible to put more than one machine here.
It's logical. I'll try to do something... maybe rework the hull partially, or low the upper weight.

_________________
Serve the Nation! Be striped!

Well, the first redesign:



1) Turrets lenghtened, for the place to loaders

2) Get rid of the sponsones for secondary AA guns

3) For the stability problem, i deside to increase the width of center hull. Yes, it would drop speed, but actually, the original "Oyodo" 35 nm per hour is pretty excessively for the 1950th.

_________________
Serve the Nation! Be striped!

sounds good! that would fix most if not all problems.
the only addition I have is that it might be best to have the widest point a bit more aft (or, in other words, a bit more volume aft) because the turret and magazine there are heavier then the original catapult.

_________________
Drawings are credited with J.Scholtens
I ask of you to prove me wrong. Not say I am wrong, but prove it, because then I will have learned something new.
Shipbucket Wiki admin

Hm, sounds pretty logical, thanks! So the ship would have more the "battleship" hull profile, but it's even better.

Thanks, colleague!

_________________
Serve the Nation! Be striped!

I wonder if the original shape for the turrets would have been kept, postwar a more streamlined shape was often favored. the same goes for the funnel as well.
hey, we are now looking at aestetics, I think the ship works!

_________________
Drawings are credited with J.Scholtens
I ask of you to prove me wrong. Not say I am wrong, but prove it, because then I will have learned something new.
Shipbucket Wiki admin

Well, the ship without at least elemenatry aestetic definitely wouldn't work

Funnel and turrets - well, the Japan in this timeline, like in real, haven't any real expirience in 1946-1956. So... I think, anachronistic elements like pipes may be logical.

_________________
Serve the Nation! Be striped!