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Rodondo
Post subject: Re: looking for artist for joint project(s)Posted: June 20th, 2014, 9:34 am
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By that theory you should be going with a 16" gun ;) The ideal proven group of calibers for good CIWS Calibers is roughly 15mm-40mm, as to my understanding this is due to the need to giving the round sufficient weight and a high firing rate, as the most I've heard a 76mm gun attaining is 2 rounds per second, compared to Phalanx 20mm CIWS which is 75 rounds per second, even the Dardo 40mm CIWS which manages 10-15 rounds per second, its the dispersion of a literal cloud of small bursting rounds that makes the CIWS system effective, not a few large bursts.

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acelanceloet
Post subject: Re: looking for artist for joint project(s)Posted: June 20th, 2014, 9:56 am
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bigger calibres are better, because they are multi purpose. the zumwalt has 2 57mm as both CIWS and every other gun role but land attack, while france and italy use this 76mm gun as main gun as well.
the kortenaer class was originally build with 2 76mm guns, but was refitted to 1 76mm and 1 goalkeeper. note also that the dutch navy is currently doing an large goalkeeper upgrade program and that the ships currently being build still receive goalkeeper. the strales mount is an upgrade to the basic 76mm that makes it better against anti-ship missiles.
the goalkeeper is just as good, if not superior in CIWS role, but just severely lacks in anti-small craft or anti-ship tasks where the 57 and 76mm guns are better.

btw, note that you can not use any real system, as european manufacturers use many US parts for their systems. for example, the oto melara gun series uses US ammunition types, thales radars use US chips and other parts.......

note also that the 76mm guns are 70's tech.

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lordarpad
Post subject: Re: looking for artist for joint project(s)Posted: June 20th, 2014, 9:58 am
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actually the "wall of lead" has never worked, Didn't in WWII, doesn't now. 57mm and 76mm can engage a fair bit further out, are more versatile and - again - are being chosen as CIWS by some rather major players. And as for Phalanx -with that exposed gun, USN sailers have told me that CIWS is an acronym for "cr*p, it won't shoot" ;)

Also, goalkeeper at al are pretty darn unstealthy compared to the 57mm and 76mm turrets (or the new 40mm Bofors at that).

BTW: whoever said it - flat panel Sampson? I'll be in my bunk ;)


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acelanceloet
Post subject: Re: looking for artist for joint project(s)Posted: June 20th, 2014, 10:14 am
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yeah, of course phalanx never works. because of that, it is used by 19 nations. seems the majority of the worlds navies disagree with your USN sailors :P.
and note, I am not saying the 57 and 76mm guns cannot do CIWS. I am just saying that they are about as good, if not worse, then the systems that are actually designed to do that task, instead of systems adapted for it (this goes more for the 76mm then the bofors 57mm, which was in it's original form designed exactly for the task CIWS does now)
on stealth, you have a point, but if the effect of the CIWS mounting on RCS is that much, maybe you have gone a bit overboard with stealth. (to the level where the radar reflection of the wake of the ship shows exactly where the ship is, making that ship only stealthy when being slow) note how the LCS for example also use the less stealthy variant of the 57mm gun then the visby class uses.

and as far as I know, the wall of lead worked pretty damn good. also, goalkeepers hit, on average, with the first 2-5 bullets being fired, so a salvo of 10 can destroy any incoming target for certain...... not really an wall of lead (this counts more for the phalanx)

it's just not that simple when comparing CIWS and guns with each other as you think it is.

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Karle94
Post subject: Re: looking for artist for joint project(s)Posted: June 20th, 2014, 10:15 am
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Wall of lead doesnt work, say that to the thousands of planes shot down by USN ships in the Pacific.


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shippy2013
Post subject: Re: looking for artist for joint project(s)Posted: June 20th, 2014, 10:22 am
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Wall of lead doesn't work eh........

Id like to here that said to a mate I have who serves in the British army and has done 2 tours at camp bastion. Some phalanx were removed from redundant type 42 destroyers and placed on the base perimeter. They accounted for numerous RPG rounds being stopped...... and on at least 1 occasion a morter round


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lordarpad
Post subject: Re: looking for artist for joint project(s)Posted: June 20th, 2014, 10:36 am
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nice one on that. aimed wall of lead is better of course.

as for aiming:

"With a rate of fire of up to 120 rounds per minute, the 76/62 can put a thick wall of iron and fire in the face of any threat aiming for the warship, but it is with the DAVIDE model (STRALES for the export market) that the CIWS capability of the 76mm gun was really achieved.
STRALES is a guidance kit, installed within the gun turret and comprising a radio frequency beam antenna which is normally hidden under a sliding panel in the gun shield, to the side of the barrel. The covering panel slides upwards to reveal the radio frequency antenna when it is time to employ the DART (Driven Ammunition Reduced Time of flight), a guided, sabot-discarding high speed round meant to shot down airplanes and missiles as well as take off FIACs and suicide boats. The DART is an hyper velocity munition capable to cover a 5 km distance in less than five seconds, with enough energy to perform up to 40 manoeuvers and course corrections. The projectile is composed by two parts: the forward half of the round is free to rotate and has two canard wings which are employed to control the flying course. The aft part contains a 2.5 kg warhead made lethal by the pre-fragmented load of tungsten cubes meant to tear incoming missiles apart. The fuze employed is the 3A PLUS, a programmable tri-mode device. The tail has six fixed wings and the backwards-looking radio receivers. These, in fact, look back to the antenna mounted in the gun shield, to keep inside the radio frequency beam as the as they are guided in Command Line of Sight against the incoming targets."

from http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot ... -guns.html - we don't need a high rate of fire, cos a) we have exploding munition with a lot of shrapnel and b) it is being course corrected. I'd still go with the 76mm Strales.


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acelanceloet
Post subject: Re: looking for artist for joint project(s)Posted: June 20th, 2014, 10:39 am
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ow, you can go with anything you want. just don't claim it is ' a much more potent CIWS than goalkeeper or similar' because it isn't.
goalkeeper does exactly what is described the 76mm bullet does, without needing to steer the projectile.

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heuhen
Post subject: Re: looking for artist for joint project(s)Posted: June 20th, 2014, 11:01 am
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Ace... Norwegian NAMO make 76mm amunition (was 3" before) for The Norwegian Navy, and are supplying the US navy with specialized ammunition for all guns up to 76mm (Or 3") so yeah..


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lordarpad
Post subject: Re: looking for artist for joint project(s)Posted: June 20th, 2014, 12:06 pm
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ace: then why is nobody buying it? I see 57mm selling, Strales selling, Millenium gun selling and Phalanx (increasingly less outside the US). Goalkeeper? Not so'd you notice. And again with the lack of stealth


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