König-class

GD, I'm sorry to say that you're quite misrepresenting what I actually wrote. I merely pointed out the fact that Louis of Baden was that dynasty's most renowned member, not that the SMS Markgraf would've in itself been named for him. Please, next time read carefully, that way we may avoid unnecessary misunderstandings. I still hold firm to my opinion, though, till it's proven wrong. But, for now, I'm going to bow out of this discussion. I've given my penny's worth, and that's enough for me.

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My Avatar:Петр Алексеевич Безобразов (Petr Alekseevich Bezobrazov), Вице-адмирал , царская ВМФ России(1845-1906) - I sign my drawings as Ari Saarinen

Garlicdesign wrote:

Conclusion: I've yet to be convinced that these ships had any badges other than the crowns. There is no hard evidence to be found in the www other than unfounded claims. Concering the crowns, only König and Großer Kurfürst have theirs documented by photographs. If one wants absolute certainty, Kronprinz and Markgraf should be depicted without any crests, and the other two only with the crowns; the crowns for Kronprinz and Markgraf can be retained if an educated guess is enough. As for KimWerner's badges (sorry, no insult intended, really) I don't think we can be certain enough about their authenticity to use them.

I'm agreeing that it is very hard to find hard evidence in the net. I don't know how official this site (www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de) is, but it seems very accurate regarding historical facts. It's through this site I try to confirm info's and I will claim, that historical postcards combined with other (old) sources gives a certain certainty though

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DD County Class PNS Babur (1982)(PAK)
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I re-read your last explanation a little more thoroughly, and realized that I didn't comment on the etymology of the title 'Markgraf'. Now, the two ancient titles Marquis (Marquess) and Markgraf May, indeed, gave the same etymological origin, namely the Old French word for frontier, marche, or in German Mark, which in turn evolved from the Latin word Marca, meaning the same However, the reason why I cautioned you not to use the title Marquis, is because the hierarchical evolution of the two titles came to differ markedly; that of a Markgraf being of a princely or Royal status, with the sovereign right to govern and rule their own territory, whereas a Marquis simply is a lower rung from Duke in most countries or societies where such titles still are in use or have been used. Therefore the usage of the English translation of Margrave is the proper; your explanation about English being somehow discriminatory just doesn't hold up, my friend.

Hello again!

Bezo, please calm down, I did not want to start a fight. I just wrote what I found on the net. The topic of this discussion is after all 'which badge to use for the Königs'. I just wanted to make clar that I found nothing that really convinced me that there were any official badges for these ships at all, except for the bow crowns, which on König, according to photographic evidence, happens to be the Prussian one, rather than that of Württemberg, which it should have been if Wikipedia was right about the namesake. And, if they were not right about König, maybe they were wrong about Markgraf too. That's all I wanted to say. Really.

KimWerner: It's really nothing against you, but I think the crowns are the only badges we can be sure about. The König-class is terribly poorly documented compared with other German ship types, and they are the only ones where the postcard badges are not backed up by photographic evidence. On the other hand - the badge for Grosser Kurfürst can also be used for the Kurfürst Friedrich Wilhelm (Brandenburg-class; I think someone has made a drawing of this class some time ago, but never uploaded it) and the one for Markgraf can be used for Baden, which is currently being drawn by Tempus Fugit. Maybe someone even decides to draw the imperial Yacht Hohenzollern, which would use the badge you made for Kronprinz. So your work should not be in vain, after all.

I hope this concludes the debate, so I can go on and draw some russian dreadnoughts.

Greetings
GD

Oh, my friend, I'm calm, believe me, and I was calm before. A little heat in a debate just adds vigor to it, don't you think.
Now, you did not quite represent your case before the way you did now in your latest post, and I'm perfectly satisfied with the answer you gave there, and I thank you for taking your time further clarifying your opinion on the matter. So, in other word, this will settle our disagreement in a most amicable way.

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