Shipbucket

This is another superb series of wonderful drawings. Great work Garlicdesign.

_________________
Hood's Worklist
English Electric Canberra FD
Interwar RN Capital Ships
Super-Darings
Never-Were British Aircraft

Wow...

How could I miss this post...

Excellent work! Another stunning entry, Garlicdesign.

Hello again!
Sorry for the late answer, but I am currently on vacation on Crete and the hotel's wlan works rather intermittently. A few thoughts about the badge thing, KimWerner:

1. Yours are of course very well executed, chapeau on that.
2. I have seen quite some pics of Koenig-class ships actually wearing their crowns, all except Kronprinz in fact; there was also a photograph of Grosser Kurfuerst wearing her crown in her post-refit configuration with the tube mast. So I am quite sure the crowns were used, and not dropped after the war began.
3. The badge suggested by you for Markgraf seems to support the theory that the vessel was named for the Markgraf (Marquis) of Baden, which I find rather hard to believe; I think it more reasonable that it is named for the Markgraf of Brandenburg, which is the title of the Hohenzollern dynasty before they became electors. If the gold-red crest were correct, it would probably the same that was carried by SMS Baden, which strikes me as... well... impractical, although I have not checked that.
4. If you were correct about these badges, it would be the only class that used bow crests that look different from the 'official' badge, which also strikes me as less than likely.

Anyway, I'll dig a little bit deeper into these issues when I return from my vacation!

Greetings
GD

Have a great vacation, my friend!

_________________

MS State Guard - 08 March 2014 - 28 January 2023

The Official IJN Ships & Planes List

#FJB

GD: Markgraf in English translates as Margrave, not Marquis. That's an ordinary, non-royal title.
As for the name, whether Baden or Brandenburg margravinates, I'm firmly convinced that the ship was, indeed, named in honor of the Royal family of Baden. More specifically, the ship's name evoked the glorious military exploits of Margrave Ludwig Wilhelm (1655-1707), popularly referred to as "Türk-Ludwig" or Turk-Louis, a sobriquet earned in his many campaigns as an Imperial commander in Austria's wars against the Ottoman Empire, whom he beat decisively at Slankamen (Serbia), Aug. 19, 1691. Later he participated with conspicuous gallantry and success in the War of the Spanish Succession, contributing to the major victory at Schellenberg, July 2, 1704, against France and Bavaria.

I hope my little biographical exposé has made it clear after whom SMS Markgraf was named!

_________________
My Avatar:Петр Алексеевич Безобразов (Petr Alekseevich Bezobrazov), Вице-адмирал , царская ВМФ России(1845-1906) - I sign my drawings as Ari Saarinen

Enjoy your vacation GD We'll take it up when you returns. I show your my sources below (both pics and links). I don't know if the post cards are imperial officiel, but in other cases they always shows the right badges.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/31/77ct.jpghttp://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/we ... or%202.jpg

http://media.auvito.de/images/cache/1f/ ... 1,-1,0,0,0http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/we ... or%20+.jpg

http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/we ... onig_1.jpg
Edit: I've searched so long for some picture of the badge for SMS Kronprinz and just now I've stumbled over it. It seems that he have the same badge as SMS König, which in a way is obvious, because it's the arms for the Hohenzollern (the imperial family name for those who didn't know )

http://img.ma-shops.com/futter/pic/4686_scan13945.jpg

_________________
Work in progress:
DD County Class PNS Babur (1982)(PAK)
FF Type 21 Class D182 PNS Babur (2000)(PAK)
All relevant Coat of Arms

In my search for accuracy I've found this in the net to day. It shows another badge for SMS König Then it ain't easy to find out which one is the right one
My german friends I have to ask you to figure it out, that the right ships get the right badges

http://media.auvito.de/images/cache/dc/ ... 1,-1,0,0,0

_________________
Work in progress:
DD County Class PNS Babur (1982)(PAK)
FF Type 21 Class D182 PNS Babur (2000)(PAK)
All relevant Coat of Arms

Hello again!

KimWerner:
Sorry I can't go deeper in detail while I'm on vacation and provide some suggestions of my own, but these pics seem dubious to me:
- the data sheet labeled Markgraf definitely shows Grosser Kurfuerst (I have a bigger version of that pic which shows the bow crest, and that ship should also have an additional bridge level if it was Markgraf).
- the postcards labeled Makrgraf and Grosser Kurfuerst both show the same photograph, and thus the same ship, which is, you might see it coming, actually Koenig.

So unless the creators of these cards were very much more careful with the research of the badges than of the ships, I would not consider them reliable sources. On the other hand, the badges are beautiful, and if you come up with the one for Koenig you recently found as well, I'd be happy to include them on my drawings together with the crowns (of whose authenticity I'm still more convinced, I have to say)

Bezo:
Thank you for the research. But, I hope you don't take this badly, you pointed out yourself that the allegiance of the "Tuerkenlouis" was to the Habsburg Empire all his life. Wilhelm II would never have named a ship for such a man, no matter his exploits. Imperial German ships named for military commanders were all named for Prussians, exclusively. Non-Prussian German countries were ok as namesakes, for they were now part of the empire, but not their heroes who fought for non-Prussian goals. So, I am still not sold on that matter. Give me a week or so to look into it.

Greetings
GD

Well, my friend, no bad feelings. I do, however, think your reasoning is faulty, since I did also mention that it wasn't n particular him that was to be honored, but rather the Royal house of Baden, which had contributed to a degree in the unification of the Empire.

Besides, your argument fail to mention "König Albert" and "Prinzregent Luitpold"; the former a noted Saxonian monarch, who, in 1866, in fact had taken up arms against Prussia, thus fighting for "non-Prussian" goals. The latter was a Regent of the Kingdom of Bavaria, during Louis II:s last years of reign, after he'd gone mad. Luitpold, too, was noted for his independent stance towards the Prussian monarchy. Yes, both men acquiesced to the formation and supremacy of the Imperial rule, but, nevertheless did promote the goals of their own countries!

As for Turk-Louis not fighting for "Prussian ( or at the time, Brandenburgian) goals", well, that argument doesn't convince me either, since fighting the Turks was very much a common Christian goal at the time, and Louis of Baden-Baden did employ several Brandenburgian regiments, most of whom were "volunteers"

But, yes sure, dig into it so we may settle the mystery once and for all!

_________________
My Avatar:Петр Алексеевич Безобразов (Petr Alekseevich Bezobrazov), Вице-адмирал , царская ВМФ России(1845-1906) - I sign my drawings as Ari Saarinen

Hello everyone!

Did some digging about the König-class names and badges.

1. König. According to Wikipedia, named for King Wilhelm II of Württemberg. That claim is just made, not supported by any citations. I have no Idea where that piece of Information came from; I've found nothing on the www that actually supports it. In my opinion, it's wrong. Reason: The crown at the ship's bow.

It looks like the crown of the King of Prussia

and not like the crown of the King of Württemberg

So, if the ship carries the crown of the King of Prussia as her 'Bugzier', chances are it is named for him and not for the King of Württemberg. Wikipedia seems to be wrong. As for the badges found in the www by KimWerner: They are contradictory (one shows the crest of House Hohenzollern, the other shows a crest I was unable to verify at all), and I have not found anything that supports the Idea these were in any way 'official' - or even in use at all. This becomes even more obvious with the next ship:

2. Markgraf. According to Wikipedia, named for the royal Family of Baden. According to Bezo, for one of its members in particular (see above). According to pictures I found on the www: Who knows.
-
Interestingly, the Markgraf of Baden was a title held by the Dynasty of Zähringen (actual name of the family), who already had a pre-dreadnought battleship named for them. Speaks rather against the Baden-theory than for it in my book. Besides, I still refuse to believe the German imperial navy would name a ship for a man who never in his life held any allegiance to the Prussian cause (as König Albert and Prinzregent Luitpold both did, the former at least after 1870, the latter, who assumed regency in 1886, throughout his reign), but I really can't prove my cause. As with König, I am quite sure there was no 'official' badge other than the 'Bugzier'. Coming to that, I have found no photographic reference of SMS Markgraf wearing any kind of badge, so I can't even be really sure of the crown. The proper scientific way would be to erase the badge in its entirety, because there is no firm evidence whatever as to whether SMS Markgraf had one at all and how it looked. But since everyone seems to agree that she was named after some Markgraf or other, her crown (if indeed she had one) would very probably have looked like the generic Markgraf-crown I used. By the way, a Markgraf actually is exactly the same title as the french Marquis and the english Marquess; it is translated to Margrave in English and French just to discriminate German nobility from their domestic equivalents (the same way the English call foreign equivalents of their Earl not Earl, but Count, and there are no English Counts).

3. Großer Kurfürst. Named for Friedrich Wilhelm I of Prussia, that one is not disputed. The crest drawn by KimWerner fits. There is however no evidence at all on the www (the postcards and data sheets in my opinion do not count) that she had an official badge different from her 'Bugzier', which on the other hand is clearly visible on a multitude of photographs.

4. Kronprinz. Named for the heir to the Throne of Prussia, which is again undisputed; the name change to Kronprinz Wilhelm in 1918 was for clarification only. Like Markgraf, no photographs at all exist of Kronprinz wearing any kind of 'Bugzier'; the crown I used however is definitely the crown of the prussian crown prince. Apart from that, I found two pics showing other badges, one of them was already posted by KimWerner and shows the original crest of House Hohenzollern; the other (differing of course) shows no badge at all, but rather a flag, which certainly would not have been used as a badge.


Conclusion: I've yet to be convinced that these ships had any badges other than the crowns. There is no hard evidence to be found in the www other than unfounded claims. Concering the crowns, only König and Großer Kurfürst have theirs documented by photographs. If one wants absolute certainty, Kronprinz and Markgraf should be depicted without any crests, and the other two only with the crowns; the crowns for Kronprinz and Markgraf can be retained if an educated guess is enough. As for KimWerner's badges (sorry, no insult intended, really) I don't think we can be certain enough about their authenticity to use them.

Any opinions?

Greetings
GD