Shipbucket

Haha yes LEUT_east - hope you approve of this iteration

Cheers

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DCFI (Falkland Islands) AU Nation

Great work on both the ships and the aircraft. My only question is whether the air force would have 4 E3's. The French air force only has 5 and the British 7 ( 6 in service ) and these are much larger force's.

Hi re-pm I'm willing to help (but this is your AU so do tell me to shut up if I get in the way I will not take it badly ).

If I was the FI,
1) I would do it on the cheap (GB always does ) so looking to deter an invasion rather than really fight it.

2) when does your AU diverge ? (if its pre 1945 then I think forget about 82 and just plan a story line from 1945-2014, yes you can have an invasion but its unlikely to be exactly the same time/date/size)

3) Use the fact that the FI will be part of a greater alliance, ie GB/commonwealth so kit should be from GB or NATO stuff.(this can cut cost as FI can just use GB repair facilities, say they 'pay' for a number of helicopters but operate them in a mixed pool with the RN this will save on having repair/training facilities etc.)

4)I would use a single big airbase/international airport (at Stanley or nearby I presume it is still the capital + it has a good harbour) + a few heliports/internal airports for light aircraft (5/6 ish one for each minor settlement ) (ie mix use of civilian/mill to cut costs) + any offshore oil rigs heliports ?


My ideas for a FI mix would be (sometime in 70/80's depending on budget/resources and how hostile the Argentinians are),

Army - 1 FIDF/RN commando + some extra support/HQ (700/800 men mainly local reserve with about 300 regulars on rotation from GB)

Ships - a few (2-6). A mix of low (OPV/type 14) and a few high (my 41/61 or even better if you have your budget your guardian or a full on new type 42 ish ?) the high ship may not actually be used to guard the FI but just pooled with the RN.

Air – I would use RAF/RN stuff (and in small numbers to cut costs)
1 x flight (6) of fighter/bombers (I would used phantoms if costs allow if not any cast off's from RAF, maybe swap with harriers if you want the plucky VTOL jet to 'prove' itself just as OTL).
1 x flight (6) support (4x Short Belfast/or C130 but I like the Belfast’s range + 2x Nimrod) for transport and reconnaissance, second hand from GB.
1 x helicopter squadron (mix Sea Kings (mix of ASW/transport) + smaller Lynx/Wasp (for ships with small flight decks)
+ civilian helicopters (from oil industry/internal airlines) will be organised to be available to move troops in an emergency.
+ If you still have any cash maybe a flight (4-6) Harriers for if your main runway is being repaired (but I would build at least 2 with big taxi ways anyway as there are not many divert airfield nearby).

I would not bother with coastal defences (guns/missiles) as the FI is just to big to cover all of it with a realistic force. I would use the fighters/Nimrods to kill any invasion with Sea Eagle missiles.
OK, maybe a small number of AA guns/missiles to guard the main runway would be useful (I would go with the same as used on the FI warships (land Sea Wolf ? Or just use RAF reg kit).

The type 15's are WW2 hulls they will be to old (and badly made in wartime). I would not use caves (as sheds are cheaper and can look like the many sheep sheds ).

JSB

this is great!

I really like that Type 14 conversion JSB. I think that would make a good patrol vessel. For a basic SAM there is always Blowpipe for a British flavour with a basic pintle mount.

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Thanks for your positive responses Gents;

JSB, never will you find me telling you to shut it! contribute all you like good Sir - it is most welcome.
your posts are ever helpful and your realistic pragmatism more than valuable in keeping my ambitions within reasonable limits! With your permission i may make some mods to either your Type 14 or Type 41 in due course as potential FDS fleet assets!?! The changes will be minor.

With regard to the initial iterations of my FDS Air Fleet (still a major WIP)
My intent Shippy2013 was to mimic the nature and capability of US and NATO air policing operations on Iceland during the cold war - the rationale being that the Falklands' new-found wealth has created an undercurrent of envy/covetousness amongst it's South American neighbors (not just Argentina anymore) that has increased the threat to the area significantly. The AU potential for this is interesting - consider the AU superpower that is the Republic of Venezuela http://www.shipbucket.com/forums/viewto ... &start=100 and the power of the other South American Air Forces listed in that thread!! If this is a guide to the highly capable and highly militarized nature of the South American continent in an alternate timeline then, well... I feel justified.

Iceland had a rotational detachment of 3-4 E3 Sentry's during the 80's, with 1-2 airborne at any time for AEW&C of the standing quick reaction alert (QRA) fighters, with the remaining 1-2 in maintenance or as attrition replacements. In recent years the air policing mission at NAS Keflavik has comprised 4-6 air superiority fighters + 1-2 AWACs on rotation from a number of NATO members - if this is also the case on the Falklands then this could allow assets to be contributed to overseas missions/multilateral exercises etc without compromising home defense.

Whilst it isn't my intent to turn the Falklands into an independent mini-superpower, i felt that if it were directly threatened, it would have to be able to hold it's own until sufficient UK/Commonwealth assistance could be rendered. As such, the FDS air fleet is based around a core of;
- 1 Air Superiority Fighter SQDN;
- 1 Multi-Role Fighter/Attack SQDN (Maritime AsuW and land action fast air support);
- AWACs support
- 1 SQDN of ASW Maritime Patrol Aircraft for prosecution enemy submarines.
- limited but capable support assets (i.e. air-to-air refueling, broad area maritime surveillance, pilot training aircraft, transport and logistics air support etc.

The main threat axis to the Islands is from the North-Nor West-West (South American mainland and Mid-Atlantic) but keep in mind that in my AU the territories of the Falkland Islands extend to the South sandwich islands, South Georgia and the South Orkney's in the South-Sou East, a reasonably large slab of land and ocean to police/defend!

As an aside - if you'd like further info as to how Iceland's NATO presence operated, have a read of Tom Clancy's 'RED STORM RISING' novel - as with all his novels it is quite engaging but also incredibly accurate in its detail.

Hope this clarifies matters some, thanks again for your contributions!

Cheers

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DCFI (Falkland Islands) AU Nation

Ok I've quite made up my mind - Aside from that which I've already posted, development of this AU is going to start in the present, transition to the legacy fleets (both Air, Land and Sea) and then look to the future. As such, i am pleased to present the Work In Progress that is the FDS-N's Diesel Electric Submarine - The Repulse Class SSK.



The back story is still in development but in short;

- Joint program with RN to build SSKs based on Trafalgar Class SSNs (no such thing as Upholder class in this AU)
- RN pulls out of program to seek full Nuclear Fleet - FDS Goes it alone with funding help and orders 3 boats
- Class brought into service from 1994 replacing existing Oberon Class Boat (FDS/HMS Ocelot)
- 2 in service at any one time with 1 in training and maintenance cycle - joint Falklands/Royal Navy Crew
- RN SSNs only deployed south of Ascension Island in times of heightened tension or for exercises.
- Highly automated to ease crewing requirements - can deploy with as little as 35 crew.
- equipped to fire Spearfish, Sub-Harpoon and TLAM (JASSM a future possibility to supersede Harpoon)
- Equipped with AIP and latest sensor suites (as per Astute class) during mid-life upgrades in early 2010s
- On par with Collins class and Soryu class as most Capable and quiet SSKs in service globally.

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1) Feel free to use any of them.

2) Remember NAS Keflavik was not really to defend island ! but to guard the supply lines for REFORGER and CONUS city's from sub/air attack so cost was no object ! (and it was going to fight the USSR, I do hope that Argentina isn't that dangerous !) Will be very expensive !
I would suggest that you could go with,
1 Multi-Role Fighter/Attack SQDN (thinking Phantoms then maybe Tornados/Typhoons)
1 small SQDN of C130 set up as transports/air-to-air refuelling/Maritime Patrol Aircraft/AWACs(fit kit from a E2?) ideally they should be able to swap roles, Ie have them 'plumbed up' but the kit is on a pallet than you can swap/take out. (I would prefer Belfast's for range if available early on).
This set up would be cheaper (if less good) but would still be very hard to attack (especially if it can operate from more than 1 runway on the Falkland's (if not I would almost try to fit in some harriers Sea for emergency anti shipping use, or go to Phantoms/Hornets + E2/C2 and use arrester wires/JATO to make use of small runways).

Edited to add,
3) I feel a bit like the unofficial HMFIT but just how big is the pill of gold at the end of the Falklands ( AUS only has 6 and hasn't really kept them all working due to cash !). are you turning the FI into a AUS size power ? (2014 Pop 23,508,115 GDP $1.525 trillion )

4) the Argies attacked with 90 men in ribs (ok + 20 LVTP7 later from ARA Cabo San Antonio) this would stopped by much less forces than you have (and even if they have more you as defender will have an advantage, they will need 3 v 1 to be safe attacking ? ) . they only did it after, In my personal opinion even a stronger Argentina will not attack (at least successfully) if 1 flight of phantoms can get airborne to defend the FI. (+ a few patrol boats to challenge the ships to stop first as you cant just use Sea Eagle without warning on scrap metal merchants )

JSB

JSB;

1) Thanks - i surely will.

2) You're probably right about the air force - will have to reconsider and come up with something a little more affordable. Crying shame... sob.

3) I'm gonna fight back on this one and say that the submarines are a 'jointly funded project' and therefore affordable!! (think Germany with Israel's Dolphin class SSKs - 2-3 of the class are practically gifts! Israel got a two-for-one special!!)

4) With regards to the relative wealth of the AU Falklands; the population by 2014 is on or about 250,000 (+ transient population serving the oil and gas industry) living on the Falklands, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands. If we pro rata Australia's GDP to create the Falklands GDP we get (if my maths is right) a GDP of around $25 Billion before natural resource royalties. Once Royalties are factored in we get a GDP approaching 35 Billion.
Meaning that if the Falklands spends 6% or so of it's GDP on defense we get a defense budget of $2.5-3 Billion before foreign assistance (i.e. the UK) which should about double that figure. Consider as well that for the first 20-25 years of independence, the Falklands is operating with cast-offs or donations (albeit upgraded) from the UK and other nations (just like Israel did initially) which would allow financial forward planning to allow for more expensive and capable replacement equipment later on.

That's the best I've got at the moment - hope that clarifies matters some.

Cheers

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DCFI (Falkland Islands) AU Nation

I think realistically even with a population of 250,000 (and a rather high 6% GDP) you're probably looking at a reserve infantry company, a couple of OPVs and a handful of small maritime patrol aircraft.

I think to do this AU well you'll have to throw 90% of realism out the door. To start with I would try boosting the population numbers even further (give them a reason to move and stay there early on - 1800's or so - and then with natural growth and a modern resources boom it could give you something meaningful to work with). This would give you more ability to field a force larger and more advanced than what I mentioned above.

A thought regarding aircraft could be buying ex-FAA aircraft in the 60s/70s like the Gannet (both AEW and ASW) to give you some capability on the cheap. For modern fighters I think the Hawk and its variants would be hard to look past - covers some of your training aspects and would be a capable little fighter with some upgrades (Blue Vixen and AMRAAM?) and would be far cheaper and more flexible than high end options like Phantoms and Tornados. E-2 Hawkeyes would be a decent choice for AWACs support, and ex-USN Vikings could be interesting in the maritime patrol mission. Perhaps a couple of C-130s to cover transport, aerial refuelling and SAR would be a good capability to have too. I would guess that helicopters would feature fairly significantly in the force structure also - Sea Kings for ASW/SAR/transport and Lynx for shipboard use and utility.

Submarine wise the Falkland Islands would most likely be looking at something far smaller than the Repulse class, though if you wanted to stick with the Repulse class and go into a joint venture then Canada might be interested...

Land based equipment might just be Landrovers and mortars, but you could argue the case for CVR(T)s and L118s.

Those thought aside I'm finding this thread very interesting so I'm looking forward to seeing how it evolves

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