Shipbucket

This is the "Jet Belfast" exists in internet:



When I first came across this design I saw it as the British equivalent to Soviet Il-76. It actually looks like a cross between Il-76 (wings/engine configuration) and SC.5 Belfast (fuselage,tail). This is what I will do in the future, using the Il-76 as design base. I have already photos of SC.5 Belfast waiting. Obviously, propulsion will be four "Super Conway" borrowed from the Double Decker VC10.

India was interested from the beginning of program and became the largest export customer with 26 units.

Very, very interesting Odysseus

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The Jet Belfast shown above is in fact a real design! It is the Shorts SC.5/45.
After the demise of OR.351, in April 1964 another Air Staff Target (AST.364) was announced to replace the Bristol Britannia fleet which by 1975 would be 16 years old. The need to fly to the Far East meant a requirement to fly 5,000nm (100,000lbs - 45,360kg) with full payload to stage through Ascencion Island and Aldabra or Mauritius when using the Cape route to Singapore. Desired speed was 500kts, balanced field length 7,000ft at ISA +20C.

The Shorts SC.5/45 married to fuselage of the Belfast with the wings from the Lockheed C-141. It has a beaver tail rear door and a swing nose, all-up weight was 420,000lbs. The engines were 25,000lb RB.178 Super Conways. 123,000lbs of cargo could be carried across the Atlantic at 440kts or 100,000lbs over 3,750 miles. The 17ft 7in diameter fuselage had two decks, in a mixed role 140 troops could be carried on the upper deck and 70,000lbs of cargo on the lower deck. Span 163ft 3in (49.75m); length 136ft 5in (41.58m); wings area 483 sq ft (44.87 m sq). Shorts also designed a civilian version the SC.5/41 which they claimed had export potential. Shorts tried to interest the RAF and BOAC but with the Labour government's withdrawal from the Far East saw the need for the type vanish.

That's a real pity because I feel this might have been the aircraft to recover the Belfast's reputation. Other Jet Belfasts had been proposed for STOL use to OR.351 but the RAF had been very opposed to them. They really hated having the Belfast imposed on them and perhaps even if the withdrawal from East of Suez had been delayed, they would have opposed this simply because it was based on the Belfast. I see the SC.5/45 more as a British C-141 than a Il-76.

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Ok, British C-141. But can we avoid the Tyne-Belfast? Supposing that the Jet Belfast approved for development, a plausible timeline? Could be exported? If yes, where?
Also a longer variant would follow, like the C-141B, when USAF found that the C-141A could be full loaded in volume before reach maximum load weight.

In previous page just before the Jet Belfast I answered also for RN.

I can't see a way to avoid the Tyne Belfast, simply because this is a modification of that type. It might be possible to have done an earlier version but the Conways might have lacked the necessary power. It's possible that a better aircraft might have been designed from scratch, this is a conversion using existing wings. Why Shorts used the C-141 wings I'm not sure, probably to save design time and manufacturing space.
I do not see a C-141B stretch likely, it only happened to the C-141 because the fuselage lacked the space to utilise its payload capacity.

A plausible timeline would be; first flight 1966, entry into service during 1968. Numbers would be small, perhaps 15-20?
I think the main exports in mind were for the civil version, so I guess cargo lines of that time but the use of large freighters then was not so widespread so it seems optimistic to me to sell more than a dozen. As for Air Forces, who else in 1964 wants to fly transatlantic or to Singapore or needs to carry that much cargo and troops? I can't think of many offhand.

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Then 10 first Jet Belfast were modifications from Tyne-Belfast and 10 more were new airframes,several more new airframes sold to freight companies. Is there any chance to see the SC.5/45in FD-scale?

http://www.shipbucket.com/forums/viewto ... 4&start=70 Last post of this page

What about India ordered Jet Belfast instead of Il-76? Could this happen?

British Aircrafts Carriers(real) [my scenario]

R05 Audacious (Eagle),

899 sqn. 12 Sea Vixen FAW2 [Jaguar-M]
800 sqn. 14 Buccaneer S2 [Jaguar-M]
849 sqn. D flt. 4 Gannet AEW3, 1 Gannet COD4 [P.139 COD]
826 sqn. 6 Sea King HAS1 [P.139 ASW]
Ships Flight 2 Wessex HAS1 (SAR) [2 Sea King SAR]


R09 Irresistible (Ark Royal)

809 NAS – 12 Buccaneer S2 Strike
892 NAS – 14 Phantom FG1 Fleet Air Defence [Jaguar-M)
B Flight 849 NAS – 4 Gannet AEW3 Airborne Early Warning
849 NAS. – 1 Gannet COD4 Carrier Onboard Delivery [P.139 COD]
824 NAS – 7 Sea King HAS2 Helicopter Anti-submarine warfare [2 SEA King ASW, 2-4 P.139 ASW)
Ships Flight – 2 Wessex HAS1 Search and Rescue [1 Sea King SAR]


HMS Invincible (R06), HMS Illustrious (R07)-I change pennant numbers, since I use R05 for Eagle. I love these names.

22 aircraft;

Multi Mission - Strike, ASuW and ASW
12 x Harrier GR.7/9
10 x Sea King ASaC, and Merlin HM Mk.1 helicopters

Multi Mission - Strike and ASuW
18 x Harrier GR.7/9
4 x Sea King ASaC, and Merlin HM Mk.1 helicopters

My alternate "Malta II Class" Aircraft Carriers had Jaguar-M, Buccaneer, P.1154 or Sea Harrier, E-2K AEW, E-2K ASW, E-2K COD. Decommissioned in 2011-2012.

Audacious was decommissioned in 1988, Irresistible in 1990, replaced by two new 272m Aircraft Carriers "Audacious II".
These have Jaguar-M Mk4, Sea Harrier or P.1154 Mk4, E-2K AEW, E-2K ASW, E-2K COD, Merlin HM Mk1. Will take F-35B in near future.

In Falklands War four carries were sent, Audacious/Irresistible and Invisible/Illustrious. In the middle of the war, Irresistible replaced with one of the large "Malta II Class".

And yes, both Invisible and Illustrious are in service in this scenario, with Air Wing as above. They modernized for second time in early 2000's and will decommissioned when the LPH(R) project entered service in late 2010's.

Something tells me, that Jaguar-M as Phantom replacement (in other words: as air defence fighter) would suck. It could be an improvement over French Navy's F-8 Crusaders, but step backwards from Royal Navy's F-4. In terms of capacity, I think that only improvement over Sea Vixen it would have would be being supersonic.

The problem with RN F-4 Phantom was the they had "wrong" engine. The Spey was larger from J-79 and structural changes in F-4 to accept Spey frame affect aerodynamics. British F-4 Phantom had a bit smaller wings, less speed and range from US ones, because the Phantom was designed around GE J-79. I said this before, if i put Phantom in this AU Britain they would have same electronics with real F-4K but the J-79 engine. Also, Britain could attain license to assembly the airframes.

What other choice Britain had except the F-4? British design, from those some pages back, is preferred.

There's a reason that the MN dropped both the F1 and Jaguar as naval aircraft. They really were ill-suited to a maritime conversion... Buccaneers were good at what they did and materially good until the early nineties so sod getting rid of them for something such as the Jaguar.

The Spey was IMO the better engine for the Phantom. Top speed is an irrelevant figure which was governed by as in all British projects lack of monetary funds to do the job properly. The Spey was a more economical and cleaner engine than the J79. In retrospect had the funds and will been there the Spey probably would have ended up a lot better off than the compromised position it finally found itself in on the F-4.

There really isn't a viable alternative to the F-4 in the fleet defence role until the Hornet comes along (at least one that would launch and trap on British carriers)

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