Shipbucket

The preliminary designs for battleship replacement as described by Breyer called for main guns up to 38cm for the "coastal defense" version.

I never quite got around to modifying these a year and a half ago, but here is what the design looks like with the triple 11" pocket battleship guns.

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"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity, but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." Thomas Edward Lawrence, The Seven Pillars of Wisdom

Looks pretty interesting to me. The last design seems somewhat overloaded but the others look good. I still like this design.

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"The first rule is not to lose; The second rule is not to forget the first rule"

I am inclined to agree with you, I got rid of the triple 5.9" wing turrets to compensate but that probably ins't enough. I like the first design the most by far, even better than the original German design.

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"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity, but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." Thomas Edward Lawrence, The Seven Pillars of Wisdom

Agreed. The first looks the most balanced configuration in terms of weight distribution and such. I kinda like the second one too only the superfiring gun forward seems a bit too much. The aft platform reminds me of the M project cruisers of Z-plan note that had similar.

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"The first rule is not to lose; The second rule is not to forget the first rule"

Interesting work.

Great drawings!

The last version mounting 12 x 11" guns seems heavily overloaded though...

Just an interesting comparison, the first SpringSharp report is this ship as designed with 8x12in guns. I could net get him to make 34 knots on 17,500 tons displacement so the report shows a top speed of 30 knots. At 20,000 tons displacement he can make 34 knots, with everything else staying the same. The second report is the design with 12x11 guns. By dropping the cruising speed from 12 knots to 10 everything else can be left the same.

Moltke, Deutschland Battlecruiser laid down 1928

Displacement:
15,686 t light; 16,578 t standard; 17,518 t normal; 18,271 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
690.05 ft / 639.76 ft x 82.02 ft x 27.89 ft (normal load)
210.33 m / 195.00 m x 25.00 m x 8.50 m

Armament:
8 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 865.70lbs / 392.67kg shells, 1928 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
9 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (3x3 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1928 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 20.79lbs / 9.43kg shells, 1928 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 7,936 lbs / 3,600 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
6 - 19.7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.15" / 80 mm 393.70 ft / 120.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: 2.36" / 60 mm 131.23 ft / 40.00 m 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
114.83 ft / 35.00 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 1.57" / 40 mm 524.93 ft / 160.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.77" / 45 mm 524.93 ft / 160.00 m 27.89 ft / 8.50 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.51" / 140 mm 4.13" / 105 mm 4.13" / 105 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm

- Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 88,789 shp / 66,236 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,693 tons

Complement:
760 - 989

Cost:
£6.755 million / $27.021 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 992 tons, 5.7 %
Armour: 4,058 tons, 23.2 %
- Belts: 1,209 tons, 6.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 960 tons, 5.5 %
- Armament: 851 tons, 4.9 %
- Armour Deck: 952 tons, 5.4 %
- Conning Tower: 86 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2,764 tons, 15.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,722 tons, 44.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,832 tons, 10.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,430 lbs / 7,453 Kg = 19.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 4.5 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 16.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.49
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.11

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.419
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.80 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.29 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 2.50 degrees
Stern overhang: 49.21 ft / 15.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Forecastle (60 %): 23.62 ft / 7.20 m
- Mid (60 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m (13.12 ft / 4.00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (40 %): 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Stern: 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 19.66 ft / 5.99 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 125.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 100.1 %
Waterplane Area: 32,692 Square feet or 3,037 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 157 lbs/sq ft or 767 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.53
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

Moltke, Deutschland Battlecruiser laid down 1928

Displacement:
15,941 t light; 16,845 t standard; 17,518 t normal; 18,057 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
690.05 ft / 639.76 ft x 82.02 ft x 27.89 ft (normal load)
210.33 m / 195.00 m x 25.00 m x 8.50 m

Armament:
12 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (4x3 guns), 669.80lbs / 303.81kg shells, 1928 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
10 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns (5x2 guns), 20.79lbs / 9.43kg shells, 1928 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side ends, majority forward, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 8,245 lbs / 3,740 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
6 - 19.7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.15" / 80 mm 393.70 ft / 120.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: 2.36" / 60 mm 131.23 ft / 40.00 m 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
114.83 ft / 35.00 m Unarmoured ends
Upper: 1.57" / 40 mm 524.93 ft / 160.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.77" / 45 mm 524.93 ft / 160.00 m 27.89 ft / 8.50 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.51" / 140 mm 4.13" / 105 mm 4.13" / 105 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm

- Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 88,789 shp / 66,236 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,212 tons

Complement:
760 - 989

Cost:
£6.914 million / $27.655 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,031 tons, 5.9 %
Armour: 4,139 tons, 23.6 %
- Belts: 1,209 tons, 6.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 960 tons, 5.5 %
- Armament: 932 tons, 5.3 %
- Armour Deck: 952 tons, 5.4 %
- Conning Tower: 86 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 2,764 tons, 15.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,857 tons, 44.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,577 tons, 9.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,260 lbs / 7,375 Kg = 24.3 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 2.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 4.6 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 49 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.49
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
Block coefficient: 0.419
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.80 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.29 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 2.50 degrees
Stern overhang: 49.21 ft / 15.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Forecastle (60 %): 23.62 ft / 7.20 m
- Mid (60 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m (13.12 ft / 4.00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (40 %): 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Stern: 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 19.66 ft / 5.99 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 128.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 100.1 %
Waterplane Area: 32,692 Square feet or 3,037 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 160 lbs/sq ft or 780 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.52
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

_________________
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity, but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. This I did." Thomas Edward Lawrence, The Seven Pillars of Wisdom

Syzmo, may I steal these designs to design the Turkish BC:s for my AU- thread? In other words: smashingly well done, old boy, what, what!?!

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My Avatar:Петр Алексеевич Безобразов (Petr Alekseevich Bezobrazov), Вице-адмирал , царская ВМФ России(1845-1906) - I sign my drawings as Ari Saarinen

Interesting variation ideas for that design. I have to say though, the guns and rangefinders still use the old parts.

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Any help and source material is always welcome.