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apdsmith
Post subject: Re: Aegis vs AshmPosted: March 22nd, 2014, 4:54 pm
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MihoshiK wrote:
And why does anybody even listen to Karlo Kopp? The man is regarded as a joke by anyone who actually works in the defence establishment.
I knew I recognised that name. Lewis Page did an article on him in The Register, needless to say, he didn't come out of the article looking too good...

edit: Might as well give you the article: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/01/16 ... st/?page=1

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MihoshiK
Post subject: Re: Aegis vs AshmPosted: March 22nd, 2014, 6:01 pm
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jabba wrote:
Carlo Kopp wrote:
Curiously, we have not seen any public proposals to add further illuminator/engagement radars (eg SPG-60 series) on either the FFGs or the ANZACs. Adding an additional pair to either class would double the ships' capacity to handle a saturation attack, and also increase the likelihood of successfully killing a 2 round Alfa salvo. However, it would also weaken the case for a SPY-1 Aegis system, and bigger ships to carry it, which perhaps explains its lack of attractiveness.

The big question which must be asked is a simple one. At what point does the massive expediture on SAMs and radars required to get any measure of survivability from a surface warship outweigh the operational usefulness of the vessel itself ? If tanker supported fighters, which are capable of performing many other roles, can survivably destroy opposing ASCM shooting warships and aircraft, is not air power a better investment for blue water ASuW and AAW ?

The naval lobby frequently likes to argue that air power is an adjunct and thus a supporting capability in the blue water ASuW and AAW roles. Perhaps it is time for them to finally accept that technology has overtaken the small surface warship, and that without prohibitive investments in AAW/SAM capabilities, it is best used as a niche asset for specialised roles such as ASW, patrol, escort and fire support in lower threat level environments.
Jezus Christ, the man is seriously asking why nobody is adding more illuminators to the FFG's? Maybe because they're about at the end of their life? And maybe people are actually adding CEAFAR mounts to the Aussie ANZAC's? I mean, what are those things meant to do? Look pretty? They couldn't be Phased Radar illuminators, now could they?
There is SO MUCH wrong with that man's opinions.

If people who actually work in defense ignore you, then maybe there's nothing worth note coming out of your mouth, not matter how vocal you are...

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heuhen
Post subject: Re: Aegis vs AshmPosted: March 22nd, 2014, 7:31 pm
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apdsmith wrote:
MihoshiK wrote:
And why does anybody even listen to Karlo Kopp? The man is regarded as a joke by anyone who actually works in the defence establishment.
I knew I recognised that name. Lewis Page did an article on him in The Register, needless to say, he didn't come out of the article looking too good...

edit: Might as well give you the article: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/01/16 ... st/?page=1

Regards,
Ad
This article about Kopp, got me laughing so hard about the stupids of Kopp, that I had to go to my neighbor and say sorry for being to noisy!


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MihoshiK
Post subject: Re: Aegis vs AshmPosted: March 22nd, 2014, 9:36 pm
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heuhen wrote:
apdsmith wrote:
MihoshiK wrote:
And why does anybody even listen to Karlo Kopp? The man is regarded as a joke by anyone who actually works in the defence establishment.
I knew I recognised that name. Lewis Page did an article on him in The Register, needless to say, he didn't come out of the article looking too good...

edit: Might as well give you the article: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/01/16 ... st/?page=1

Regards,
Ad
This article about Kopp, got me laughing so hard about the stupids of Kopp, that I had to go to my neighbor and say sorry for being to noisy!
The man is a perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger effect, where a person with a little knowledge knows just enough to delude himself into thinking he's an expert. Real experts, meanwhile, see a man who is clearly out of his depth, bullshitting his way along.

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klagldsf
Post subject: Re: Aegis vs AshmPosted: March 22nd, 2014, 11:33 pm
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jabba wrote:
Carlo Kopp wrote:
Curiously, we have not seen any public proposals to add further illuminator/engagement radars (eg SPG-60 series) on either the FFGs or the ANZACs. Adding an additional pair to either class would double the ships' capacity to handle a saturation attack, and also increase the likelihood of successfully killing a 2 round Alfa salvo. However, it would also weaken the case for a SPY-1 Aegis system, and bigger ships to carry it, which perhaps explains its lack of attractiveness.

The big question which must be asked is a simple one. At what point does the massive expediture on SAMs and radars required to get any measure of survivability from a surface warship outweigh the operational usefulness of the vessel itself ? If tanker supported fighters, which are capable of performing many other roles, can survivably destroy opposing ASCM shooting warships and aircraft, is not air power a better investment for blue water ASuW and AAW ?

The naval lobby frequently likes to argue that air power is an adjunct and thus a supporting capability in the blue water ASuW and AAW roles. Perhaps it is time for them to finally accept that technology has overtaken the small surface warship, and that without prohibitive investments in AAW/SAM capabilities, it is best used as a niche asset for specialised roles such as ASW, patrol, escort and fire support in lower threat level environments.
That completely ignores the fact that both the FFGs and ANZACs are limited to ESSM or maybe the smaller Standard type missiles.

EDIT: plus what MihoshK said.


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Thiel
Post subject: Re: Aegis vs AshmPosted: March 23rd, 2014, 3:51 am
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It's also worth remembering that most nations simply doesn't have the launch platforms, let alone the missiles to carry out the kind of saturation attack everyone is talking about.
The ones that do relies heavily on P15 Termits and the like to bulk out their numbers.

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Charwhick
Post subject: Re: Aegis vs AshmPosted: March 23rd, 2014, 6:04 am
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Thiel wrote:
It's also worth remembering that most nations simply doesn't have the launch platforms, let alone the missiles to carry out the kind of saturation attack everyone is talking about.
The ones that do relies heavily on P15 Termits and the like to bulk out their numbers.
To be fair I wouldn't like to be the Admiral who had to deal with Iran getting it's hands on Brahmos.

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Judah14
Post subject: Re: Aegis vs AshmPosted: March 23rd, 2014, 7:11 am
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My statement on AEGIS/SPY-1 vs. Tacticos/APAR/SMART-L is primarily based on Thales literature:
Quote:
AAW System for US missiles
A new, cost-effective design for a naval Anti-Air Warfare (AAW) system of unrivalled performance is now operational on board the latest generation of Air Defence Frigates ("De Zeven Provinciën class") of the Royal Netherlands Navy and the Federal German Navy ("Sachsen" class) and has been selected for the Danish Patrol Ships currently under construction. The system outperforms any other AAW system, existing or under development, thanks to its unique combination of sensors and weapons. It captures the best of European and US capabilities and experience in AAW development and is a successful synergy of:

Long Range Volume Search Radar (SMART-L)
Multifunction Active Phased Array Radar (APAR)
Long Range Infrared Surveillance System (SIRIUS)
Fully Distributed AAW system architecture (SEWACO FD/TACTICOS)
Vertical Launch Missile System (Mk 41)
Long Range/Area Defence Missile (SM-2)
Medium Range/Local Area Defence Missile (ESSM)
Close-in Weapon System (GOALKEEPER / RAM)
Medium Calibre Multi-Purpose Gun:
- Netherlands 127mm + GOALKEEPER
- Germany 76mm + Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM)



The system is based on the NATO Anti-Air Warfare (NAAWS) concept combined with the latest developments in Extended Air Defence.
Source
Yes, I have read Carlo Kopp's works, but I based my statement on the capabilities of APAR and statements made by Thales.


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MihoshiK
Post subject: Re: Aegis vs AshmPosted: March 23rd, 2014, 9:52 am
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Judah14 wrote:
My statement on AEGIS/SPY-1 vs. Tacticos/APAR/SMART-L is primarily based on Thales literature:

Source
Yes, I have read Carlo Kopp's works, but I based my statement on the capabilities of APAR and statements made by Thales.
Never do that unless you have equal (and good) knowledge of what both systems can do. Today's Aegis, for example, is a far different beast than the version that went into the early Ticos. How different? If I knew that I'd be in a different line of work. Or jail.

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Judah14
Post subject: Re: Aegis vs AshmPosted: March 23rd, 2014, 1:02 pm
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MihoshiK wrote:
Never do that unless you have equal (and good) knowledge of what both systems can do. Today's Aegis, for example, is a far different beast than the version that went into the early Ticos. How different? If I knew that I'd be in a different line of work. Or jail.
Yup, today's Aegis is better than the early versions, and I know that. APAR and SPY-1 use different methods to avoid saturation, SPY-1 uses midcourse uplink while APAR uses Interrupted Continuous Wave Illumination (ICWI).


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