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ruzzelsuallo
Post subject: Philippines : Future, Present, and PastPosted: March 19th, 2014, 10:34 am
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Location: Rizal, Philippines
Welcome to my new forum, which will discuss the status of our Navy and post here real and never-built designs of the Philippines.

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"Give me 10,000 Filipinos and I shall conquer the whole world!"
-Gen. Douglas McArthur
Republic of Ezo AU
Republic of Amazonas AU
Republic of the Philippines AU
Republic of Cabinda AU


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ruzzelsuallo
Post subject: Re: Philippines : Future, Present, and PastPosted: March 19th, 2014, 10:37 am
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Let's start with our Deep Sea Water Patrol Vessel ( or simply Frigate ) Project.

DSWPV Project Specifications:

Budget: Php 18 billion for 2 brand-new frigates.
Capabilities:
- Anti-Air Warfare (AAW), Anti-Surface Warfare (ASuW), Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW), and Electronic Warfare (EW);
- Extended Maritime Patrol with embarked helicopter;
- Operation on up to Sea State 6

Dimesions: per function of design (depend on bidder's proposed design)
Displacement: per function of design (depend on bidder's proposed design)
Range: 4,500 nautical miles @ 15 knots;
Endurance: 30 days in tropical condition;
Speed: maximum continuous of 25 knots;
Boats Carried: minimum of 2 Rigid Hull Inflatable Boats;

Operating Environment:
- Operation at Sea State 6,
- Non-degradation of warfare mission at Sea State 5;
- Helicopter operation at Sea State 4;
- RHIB operations at Sea State 3

Complement: per function of design (depend on bidder's proposed design), but will have a non-organic crew of 8 officers, 16 enlisted personnel (embarked Task Force/air crew/1 SEAL team.)

Propulsion: minimum of 2 engines with 2 propellers with reduction gear box;
Power Supply: minimum of 3 diesel generators;
Replenishment at Sea Capable.

Navigation Equipment:
- minimum 2 navigation radars (X-band and S-band), at least 1 in solid state design, capable of Automatic Radar Plotting Aid (ARPA), Automatic Identification System (AIS) and Automatic Tracking Aid (ATA);
- GPS;
- depth sounding set;
- vessel tracking system compatible to Philippine Navy's system

Communications:
- Standard VHF AM/FM and UHF radios;
- Satelite Communications (SATCOM) system;
- Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) system;
- "Fitted for but not with" Tactical Data Link (NATO standard), still to be determined which type, supplied by PN;
- Local Area Network (LAN);
-Connectivity to the PN's Littoral Observation Stations and Maritime Research Information Center.

Sensors, minimum requirement:
- Combat Management System (CMS), readily upgradable;
- Fire Control System integrated to CMS, can track and engage surface, air and missile targets simultaneously;
- Fire Control Radar and/or Electro-Optical targeting system;
- Electronic Support Measures (ESM) with Radio Detection and Finding (RDF);
- 2D air search radar for air surveillance and target acquisition, minimum range of 80nmi, can detect sea-skimming missiles with maximum altitude of 10ft., integrated to ESM and CMS;
- 2D surface search radar, can detect anti-ship missile threats minimum range of 40nmi, integrated to ESM and CMS;
- Passive and Active Sonar system;
- Decoy launcher minimum 6 tubes per side or centrally rotating launcher

Weapons Systems, minimum requirement:
- 76mm gun at forward section with target tracking radar and/or electro-optical target acquisition and fire control computer;
- 1 x stabilized secondary gun;
- 4 x 50-caliber machine guns;
- primary and secondary guns shall be integrated to combat management system;
- 4 x surface-to-surface missile launchers, minimum 50km range, active homing seeker and ECCM capability;
- surface-to-air missile launching system, minimum quadruple launcher, minimum 6km range, IR or semi-active homing seeker, with ECCM and/or IR CCM capability;
- anti-submarine torpedoes, minimum range 2km, minimum depth 500m, with acoustic countermeasures capability, 2 x triple launchers (one on each side);

Flight Capability: Hangar and deck facilities for at least 1 helicopter up to 10-tons.
Helicopter Hangar Dimensions: 14.3m L x 9.5m W x 4.5m H, capable of accepting 10-ton helicopter design;

Ammunition:
- minimum 10 rounds each for surface-to-air and surface-to-surface missiles;
- minimum 6 torpedo rounds and a dummy torpedo;
- minimum 652 rounds assorted 76mm ammunition;
- fragmentation and high explosive rounds for secondary gun;
- minimum 54 rounds for assorted chaffs and decoys;
- minimum of 2 ammunition storage spaces

Points for Discussion based on the Information:
There are 2 parameters set on this bidding that must be considered before making conclusions:

First, the project will go through a two-stage bidding, with the initial bid only intended to provide basis of capability of competing bidders to comply with the initial specifications;

Secondly, all specified requirements in this specification by the DND are "minimum requirements", and bidders may propose a better system according to their decision.

Similar to what the DND and PN did for the Strategic Sealift Vessel, the manufacturers are given the free-will to submit a hull design that would fit to the requirements, without being specific on the dimensions and displacement. The range and endurance is acceptable for frigates, although most corvettes and OPVs also have the same capabilities with this regard. The speed appears to be slow as compared to typical frigates which have design speeds between 29 to 32 knots. Most ships with 25 knots maximum are usually offshore patrol vessels or corvettes with an all-diesel propulsion in CODAD or CODOD configuration. The propulsion requirement calls for at least 2 engines, which is standard to most warships, but it did not indicate the propulsion configuration, leaving it open for bidders to propose and if it would incorporate other propulsion systems like gas turbine or electric system.

Previously the Philippine Navy high command announced the preference on use of diesel engines or diesel engines in conjunction with a higher output alternative power source for high speed operations. This was the main reason why they rejected earlier offers by the US government for COGAG-configured Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigates so it is safe to assume that 2 diesel engines are the minimum. So we could either see a CODOD/CODAD configuration, or CODOG at best depending on what the bidders can offer.

The specifications also included a clause that requires the hull design to be based on a proven design that passed extensive model tests, with emphasis on survivability, being able to withstand damage and flooding in any 2 adjacent watertight compartments. This is very important since the ship will be used for combat operations and high-threat environments. This clause also strongly supports the previous requirements disallowing the AFP to be end-users of unproven designs. This would hurt some of the prospected bidders like ST Engineering which may offer a design that is unproven although derived from a smaller but proven ship's design.

The organic complement appears to be a matter of function of design and automation according to the proposal, but since budget is a major factor, I am expects the ship to have less automation compared to most recent designs. This would push the number of crew to a higher level, with an estimated crew of around 160 men and women. Non-organic complement includes the aviation crew and pilots (4 pilots, 2 TACCOs, 8 enlisted personnel), a SEAL team for special operations (1 officer and 7 enlisted personnel) and might also include enough accommodations for task force officers (1 senior officer, 1 junior officer, 1 enlisted personnel) indicating that the frigates can be used as task force ships or SEAL insertion platforms.


The navigation requirements appear to be standard, and is somehow available on some of the Philippine Navy's current assets. Same for the communications requirements as well except for the requirement for connectivity to "Littoral Observation Stations", which I believes to be the National Coast Watch System. Such system is also currently available with the BRP Gregorio del Pilar. A requirement for a future Data Link is also present, and appears to be "fitted for but not with" due to the absence of such system within the AFP. Upon decision of the AFP which type would be used by the entire armed forces, only then can a Data Link be installed on the ship. Due to the Philippine military's close relationship with the US, it is expected that the Data Link will somehow be an American type, possibly the Link 16.

It is in the weapons and sensors that I finds interesting discussion. The minimum requirement calls for a 2-dimensional (2D) air search and surface search radar systems. This appears to be contradictory to what the PN was planning for some time. Previously a released Request for Information (RFI) by the US Navy's Naval Sea Systems Command 2 years ago requires a minimum of a 3D-radar set for a possible PN OPV requirement. Also, 2D-radar sets may not be able to complement most modern anti-aircraft missiles, as the system can only provide bearing and range information but not the elevation. Examples of 2D radar sets that fits the range include Saab's Sea Giraffe LT, Selex's RAN30X/I, and Terma's Scanter 4100 series, which are mostly used for small OPVs or as secondary radar systems for surface combatants.


The requirement for sonar systems, which only said as capable of active and passive detection modes, remains a mystery due to lack of further information. No specific information if t would be a hull-mounted sonar, a towed array sonar, or both. This would probably be clarified later on as the project matures.

The ship's main gun will be a 76mm type, probably an Oto Melara model due to commonality with current PN systems. Although not in the specifications, the earlier report from Commodore Suarez's interview indicated a 120rpm gun, which is possibly the 76mm Super Rapid version. A secondary gun was also specified, and was designated in the specifications as a "CIWS" but did not mention the capability to shoot down incoming high speed targets like anti-ship missiles or aircraft. I believe that the specification meant it be probably like the Mk. 38 Mod. 2 gun planned for the Gregorio del Pilar-class frigates to simplify logistics and support.


An Electronic Countermeasures (ECM) suite appears to be not specified, although ESM and RDF were included in the Electronic Wafare (EW) system. Anti-ship missile and torpedo decoy launchers are also required, and will be integrated to the CMS and EW systems. Further clarification might be made if a full ECM suite is needed, similar to the AN/SLQ-32 used by the US Navy and LIG Nex1's Sonata EW System. I am placing this requirement on top of priorities in the absence of an effective anti-aircraft and CIWS system as active defense against incoming missiles.


The numbers of anti-ship missiles appears to be below the standard mount of similar-sized ships, but the ship would possibly be able to carry up to 8 launchers when necessary as this is the standard number of mounts designed for launching tubes. Requirement is for it to have an active homing seeker and ECCM capability, and a minimum range of 50km. This means missiles like the Boeing Harpoon and MBDA Exocet Blk. III are acceptable, while shorter ranged missiles like MBDA's Marte Mk.2 are out.


But the surface-to-air missile requirement is the most surprising of all, with a minimum range of only 6.0km, mounted in a quadruple launcher. Such requirement means that the minimum air defense requirement is something similar to the MBDA Mistral IR-homing very short range air defense (VShoRAD) missile mounted on a Tetral quadruple mount. Such missile system is not advisable for modern frigate-sized combat vessels as it lacks the range, thus decreasing the capability to defend itself. It decreases the number of defensive layers of the ship, making it easy for OPFOR aircraft with stand-off weapons to engage the frigate, firing at a distance without expecting any defensive threats. Also, the lack of effective air defense system plus the absence of an anti-missile CIWS makes the ship a sitting duck to missile attacks. But since it is just the minimum requirement, contenders can still propose a better system.

_________________
"Give me 10,000 Filipinos and I shall conquer the whole world!"
-Gen. Douglas McArthur
Republic of Ezo AU
Republic of Amazonas AU
Republic of the Philippines AU
Republic of Cabinda AU


Last edited by ruzzelsuallo on March 19th, 2014, 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Gollevainen
Post subject: Re: Philippines : Future, Present, and PastPosted: March 19th, 2014, 10:42 am
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I moved this to offtopic, Lets keep the General discussion forum for general, shipbucket discussion. Other stuff is more welcome here.

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Shipbucket mainsite, aka "The Archive"
New AU project "Aravala"


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ruzzelsuallo
Post subject: Re: Philippines : Future, Present, and PastPosted: March 19th, 2014, 10:44 am
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Joined: July 8th, 2013, 10:24 am
Location: Rizal, Philippines
Simply, our frigate project calls for 2 upsized offshore patrol vessels with limited capability. The current specifications does not point to that of a modern frigate due to the following reasons:
- it lacks enough information for possible "fitted for but not with" requirements should the PN find additional funds to upgrade the ships;
- reduced mobility due to low speed and low power for acceleration;
- it has an insufficient active and passive defensive capability;
- a relatively reduced detection and tracking capability;
- lack of strong anti-aircraft system with enough reach;
- unclear ASW detection capability;
- lack of emphasis on stealth or reduced radar cross section capability.

But it is too early to say because of the complicated bidding procedure.

Well, let's start with the designs..

Navantia Proposal

Spain's largest and foremost naval shipbuilders is the only non-Korean bidder to break into the qualified list. Navantia is famous with their export of frigates, aircraft carriers and amphibious assault ships to Australia, Thailand and Norway. There have been earlier reports that they have offered the Avante 1800 to the Philippine Navy for its other naval requirements (probably as corvettes or offshore patrol vessels), but missed on Navantia's offer of an Avente 2200 derivative for its light frigate requirements.

Avante 2200 is the closest model from the Navantia's Avante line of patrol and combatant vessels that may suit the PN's requirements. Compared to the smaller Avante 1800 , it has a larger dimension and heavier tonnage, has more spaces, and can meet the range and endurance requirements of the PN. A derivative of the Avante 2200 was also sold to the Venezuelan Navy a few years back.

This is what the Navantia Frigate would look in PN service based on the specifications of the project..:



(Just an update, the Navy announced that it is opening a bidding for 2 new twin-engine anti-submarine helicopters, and it already announced that it was considering the AgustaWestland AW159 Wildcat as a maritime helicopter but PN spokesman Lieutenant Commander Gregory Fabic declined to confirm that it has indeed been selected for acquisition, telling IHS Jane's that the navy is looking at all possibilities for the acquisition. The AW159 is an improved version of the Westland Super Lynx military helicopter.) For details :http://www.janes.com/article/35470/phil ... -4-billion

FEEDBACKS PLEASE!!!! :)

_________________
"Give me 10,000 Filipinos and I shall conquer the whole world!"
-Gen. Douglas McArthur
Republic of Ezo AU
Republic of Amazonas AU
Republic of the Philippines AU
Republic of Cabinda AU


Last edited by ruzzelsuallo on March 20th, 2014, 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Judah14
Post subject: Re: Philippines : Future, Present, and PastPosted: March 19th, 2014, 11:52 am
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Joined: March 5th, 2013, 11:18 am
What kind of air search radar did you use on the ship? And thanks for using my recolored PN Lynx, although beware that since I recolored that Lynx before I got to see the paintjob of the AW109's, it has the hi-viz blue of the PN BO-105's, not the low-viz grey of the PN's new AW109's.


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