Shipbucket

Already before Skybolt's cancellation British Air Ministry (already aware of its development problems and afraid of possible cancellation) drew up in january 1961 OR.1182 for a stand-off weapon for V-bombers to be in service by 1966. It was supposed to have range of 1000nm with Mach 3 speed at high altitude and Mach 2 terrain-following for the last 100nm.
Avro designed W.140, though it didn't quite met the demands (calculations said it would fly Mach 3 at 70000ft - 21336m, but only Mach 1,5 at sea level, while the range was initially just 580nm, during design work improved to 950nm), while Bristol designed X.12 also called Pandora, which was supposed to be capable of Mach 3 at high altitude (with possible Mach 4 after changes to airframe materials) and up to Mach 2,8 at low altitude, though this design in turn suffered from high weight of 15000lbs (6804kg), so even VC.10 or Victor B.2 stage 3 could get no more than 4 of these.
Soon the OR.1182 was dropped, but Bristol designed X.12B that was a three-stage solid rocket version of X.12 to be launched from VC.10, but it met with no official interest, and after the cancellation of Skybolt the British were left without modern deterrent, so a frantic search for options ensued. Most of the proposals seemed to be short range interim ones, except for Bristol Grand Slam (unrelated to WW2 bomb) - first version was a 100nm ranged rocket-propelled toss-bomb to be launched from TSR.2, but it's improvement, Grand Slam II was to be a 50ft (15,2m) long, weight 32000lbs (14515kg) for a range of 1300nm (2408km) at Mach 3 speed for first 500nm, then a low-level Mach 2 for 700nm only to pitch up in the end to toss the Grand Slam onto the target from 100nm.
(there were also proposals for air-launched Polaris and Pershing, but, well... )

Source: Chris Gibson & Tony Buttler, British Secret Projects. Hypersonics, Ramjets & Missiles, Hersham 2007, p. 114-117.

Yes, I rember the Pandora, I had found about it somewhere. Even the large B-52 could take only 2 Hound Dog so if the Victor could take 4 Pandora is good.

VC10 in this scenario will serve only in 3 variants: Commercial, Tanker (from the beggining) and AWACS with the equipment form the E-3 Sentry. So the money spend on the ill fated Nimrod AEW could be used elesewhere.

So the Victor B.2 will serve as a bomber and also the TSR.2 was not only built for RAF and RN (land based) but also exported. I made Marineflieger, Australian, Iranian (posted) and Swedish variants. Also Luftwaffe variant will be added with the green camo.

The idea behind this thread is to create a realistic, What if Britain, using the most plausible of all aircrafts and weapons designed and proposed post war.

Two weapons seem to fit, one for each remaining V-bomber:
Blue Steel Mk2 (and its improvement Mk3 later in 1970's) for Vulcan and Pandora for Victor. Perhaps the Victor could also carry Blue Steel
but I am not sure if Vulcan could carry one Pandora.

The TSR.2 is another story, according to Hood designs it entered service with RAF in 1968-1969.

Mind that Pandora-capable Victor wouldn't be standard one, but beefed-up Stage 3 version (drawing in British Secret Projects show lenghtened fuselage and enlarged wings, among others, plus of course improved engines).

The Blue Steel (http://www.skomer.u-net.com/projects/bluesteel.htm) could be developed in two variants, launched from both Vulcan B.2 and from Victor B.2.
-The RR Viper powered Low Level Launch
-The Ramjet powered Mk2 with 480km range.

I found also photos and plans of windtunnel model of Victor B.2 phase 3 carrying 4 Skybolts.


We have also here the Vulcan B.3, so the decision of which platform would carry the Skybolt is price.Tnen will be one for Skybolt,one for Blue Steel mod only. Of course the Skybolt V-bomber will also carry Blue Steel mod.

The Skybolt however does not dies as a project for me, I will return to it.

What about the W.140? Are ther any plans to post here?

no need for that. all computers (windows) have it's own screenshot button. often it stand "SysRq PrtSc"

use that button - go to paint/word/what ever - right click and "past" - now just edit it.

instead of risk getting and Virus/Trojan/Spam


did I say Spam..... here we go again, I will not be supraised if the Spanish inquisition would appear...

Ok.

Any comments about the posted information/ photos, please?

Blue Steel at best was a stop-gap weapon until Skybolt arrived. The Mk 2 was an attempt to lengthen the stand-off range as Soviet SAM defences improved. I've always liked the idea of the Viper-powered low-level Blue Steel. Avro spent as much effort on Blue Steel variants as on the original weapon. There are too many versions to list here but there were versions with jets and ramjets, even delta all-wing versions, the biggest (W.107 and W.109) just fitting under a Vulcan.

The Vulcan could carry two W.140 (both underwing) or four X.12 (2 under the fuselage and 2 underwing). While eswube mentions the weight penalty, also remember these big weapons caused a lot of extra drag under the wings and had ramjet nacelles that needed fairings etc. to reduce drag. The OR.1182 weapons were impressive beasts but probably too expensive and time-consuming to develop. Pandora or W.140 would take until the late 60s, perhaps even 1970-71, to get into service and by then manned bombers would be even more outdated for penetrating Soviet defences. The money was being spent elsewhere and giving TSR.2 a tactical weapon was a more important issue by then too.

Other projects to fill in after OR.1182 but before Polaris arrived included (to be carried by TSR.2 or V-Bombers); Club A (an unguided rocket-powered WE.177 bomb), Club B (same but with four boosters on the warhead section to create a glide bomb), Club C (air-launched Bloodhound with 46km range), Hatchet (developed by de Havilland, an air-launched ballistic missile powered by a Seaslug rocket motor, 102km range), RG.117 (another de Havilland design, 4,600lbs, 19ft long, 222-370km range), air-launched Blue Water, Supersonic Low Altitude Missile - SLAM (Avro lifting-body design based on Blue Steel layout with TSR.2 nav system and RB.153 turbojet) and the Avro W.130 (Blue Steel with canard foreplane) None were really feasible.

_________________
Hood's Worklist
English Electric Canberra FD
Interwar RN Capital Ships
Super-Darings
Never-Were British Aircraft

So we must keep the Skybolt, this is the best solution. I read that US was suggested to pass the project to England itshelf in website about all US weapons, even space vehicles. Could England carry on with the Skybolt alone? What else could be done with the Skybolt supposed it entered service? I thought a submarine-launched Skybolt for a class of british subs,but may be I was too sleepy..
The Polaris however was a good choice for a strategic missile.

And the Blue Water should be kept as a battlefield rocket, as it designed. If appears in FD-scale, I am interested to squeeze it to my AU instead of the Honest John. Seems to be cheaper than Honest John.even with the traditionally high English development cost and had the double range.

The Grand Slam 1 could also be an interim weapon for the TSR.2 and then England cooperates with France for the ASMP, which was developed by both countries, The weapon again is the same, but there are two variants, french and british, each with its own name. Good idea or not?

P.S From all these Blue Steel variants, is there one more plausible?

Some thoughts about RAF Transport aircrafts, "staying British":

Small loads/STOL : Hawker Siddeley Andover
Medium loads/STOL : non NTOL varinat of the AW.681, powered by Medways of Conways
Heavy loads : Short Belfast (and perhaps Jet Belfast,the British equivalent of the Il-76, powered by Conways and wing similar with AW681 or the Il-76)

RAF in my scenario ordered about 50-60 VC.10, several ex-civilian were dismanlted for spares later in 1990's. Of these 35 were tankers, so the Victor would stay bomber, even with the numbers built in real world. Rest were AEW/AWACS with the radar and electronics from the US E-3 Sentry (8 units) and freighters with the side door.
BOAC ordered 25 Standard VC.10, 20 Super-200 and 25 Super. None B707 was purchased, but the B747 was. BUA and British Caledonian also ordered 50 VC.10 total. Finally the VC10 was replaced by Airbus A300 and A330 in late 1980's and 1990's, while RAF still use them (tankers/AEW). In late 1980's RAF acquired 10 Lockheed Tristar from British Airways and Pan-Am and converted them to tankers, replacing the fleet of Standard VC.10s.

According to some sources I found, RAF planned to buy 30 Tyne-Belfast (I named it like this because of the Jet-Belfast). What about upgrading with the 6100hp RR Tyne from the C.160? Belfast has the 5730hp variant, so with 4 X 6100hp the aircraft would be less underpowered. Also even more powerful Tynes were considered, so the Tyne-Belfast could be developed and perhaps the Jet-Belfast was not needed if the Tyne-belfast could have 4 X 8400hp Tynes.

The AW681 was equivalent with C-130 in payload but with 4 turbojets it would have been expensive to use due to fuel consumption.