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25,000 tonne Pocket-Battleships
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Author:  Amartus [ February 23rd, 2020, 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  25,000 tonne Pocket-Battleships
Hi there

In my opinion, the so-called “pocket-battleships” (Panzerschiffe) of the Deutschland-class were very good-looking. Yet, as hardly needs to be pointed out, while they were arguably a major political success, militarily they were less so: essentially ‘(not so) super’ heavy cruisers that were not capital ships by any stretch of the imagination.

  • 1.a. I am wondering if it would be possible to build proper “pocket-battleships” with 6x350mm cannons (the same layout of 2x3 gun turrets as the Deutschland-class) with armour to match displacing no greater than 25,000 tonnes (maybe 27,500 at an absolute stretch including 10% wiggle room)?
    1.b. Could such a ship be designed / built with the technology of the 20s, or is it asking too much and it is really a job for the 30s?
    1.c. What is the maximum and cruising speed that such a ship would be able to achieve?
    1.d. What is the maximum range that such a ship could manage?
    1.e. Would such a ship be valuable as an export proposition? I am thinking especially of the Dutch – such a ship(s) would be a more potent deterrent in the East Indies....
  • 2.a. On a follow-up design, on the basis that the same 350mm cannons (possibly an upgraded / improved version like those on the Scharnhorst-class compared with those on the Deutschland-class) are used, would a more traditional 2 guns per turret arrangement be reverted to, or would 3 guns per turret be continued?
    2.b. This would depend on several factors I suppose (size of vessel, why a larger cannon is not considered etc.), but would 12x350mm cannons in 4x3 gun turrets be a possible choice, or would it be very unlikely?

Many thanks and best regards,
Amartus
Author:  KHT [ February 26th, 2020, 8:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 25,000 tonne Pocket-Battleships
Well, in short... Yes, you could probably fit six 350mm guns, and decently balanced speed and armour on 25 000 tons.

As for range and cruising speed... that's really going to depend on how you want to prioritize. If we assume that this ship is intended to slug it out against enemy battleships, and not operate primarily as a commerce raider, then you won't have the same steep requirement for a long range. On the other hand, if you do want something intended to operate primarily as a commerce raider, I'd really suggest something with more, smaller guns. In your place I'd fiddle about in Springsharp a bit. Beware that it is not a particularly reliable tool in itself, and that one should generally back it up by using similar designs, in weight and the like if not in armament, to check if any numbers one squeezes into it would be plausible. I'd point you towards contemporary carriers(for the size) and capital ships(for the role), looking up the numbers on their bunkrage, and percentage of weight dedicated to engines and fuel, number of horse power etc.

I frankly doubt the Netherlands would be emediately interested in such a design. In the 20's they were far too uninterested in greater expansion of the navy, and by the time they are, this design would be upwards five to ten years old, and really not built for their specifications. They had their own requirements, and they're not going to pay for a battleship that doesn't fit them. Hardly any nation will buy a ship of such scale "off the rack". Destroyers and the like are a different thing, because they're comparatively cheap ships.

As for a follow up design... Assuming this is a German ship, I really don't see them shipping triples to begin with. The Deutschland class has a far tighter slot to squeeze into proportionaly with six 283mm guns on the theoretical 10 000 tons, than this would have with the presented armament and displacement. If the Germans could've gotten away with twins on the Deutschland, I believe they would've done so. However, assuming you have kicked off this design series with triples, I see no reason why one would step back to twins. And assuming they're given the tonnage to build something capable of shipping twelve 350mm guns(let's assume they are sticking to the London naval treaty), I think four tripples is the most plausible solution. Reluctant as the Germans were to use triples, I really do not see them doubling down on quadruples.

Cheers.
Author:  Krakatoa [ February 27th, 2020, 7:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 25,000 tonne Pocket-Battleships
A year or two back there was a 25,000 ton challenge that threw up a lot of differing designs. see if you can find that doing a 'search'.


Edit:
A thought to keep in mind was the French Dunkerque and Strasbourg were based on 26,000 ton designs with 8x13" in two quad turrets. So a German equivalent with 6x13.8" would not be out of line.
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