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Need help with electronics for AU cruiser
http://67.205.157.234/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7686		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  phu2000 [ May 16th, 2017, 6:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Need help with electronics for AU cruiser
hello, I'm currently working on an AU cruiser right now, but I ended up with no conclusion of the design (and I'm currently unable to upload anything right now)

- The setting is 10000t mid-1960s cruiser (about the same time as Italian Vittorio Veneto), originally equipped with Mk10 for Terrier, Mk13 for Tartar and 4x twin Mk33 3"/50 gun. Her radars are SPS-39, SPS-40, SPS-10, 2x SPG-55, 2x SPG-51 and 4x Mk56 GFCS. With helipad and below deck hangar for 2 Sea King-size helicopter.

- Later, she was upgraded in early-1980s, firing SM-1ER and ASROC from Mk10, SM-1MR and Harpoon from Mk13. Also replace Mk33 with OTO Melara 76/62 and install 1-2 CIWS (maybe Phalanx or Goalkeeper). I intend to use the Dutch SEWACO/STACOS system, SPS-01 and ZW06 radar, but the rest is not decided.

Here are the problems:

1) Do we have a navigation radar in 60s? and the TACAN for helicopters?

2) Does US export any electronic warfare system (either ESM or ECM) at that time? What about Europeans?

3) Would there be any technical problem for using SEWACO/STACOS and SPS-01 along with SPG-55 and SM-1ER? Like range or radar band, not including that in reality Dutch had no SM-1ER thus it's not certified with.

4) Which band does SPS-01 operates in? Because there is still a position left for another radar, so i cannot decide whether to just go with WM28 or put an L-band 2D radar on it. I originally provides position for 2 WM22 (controlling 2 76mm guns each side) but I'm not sure that do I need WM28 for SM-1MR/ER (like OHP) when I already have the SPS-01.

(note that SPS-01 is going to be on mid-ship position and there is another mast near the bridge, like acelantloet's Dutch Kidd viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2002)

5) I'm also looking for the decoy for 80s modernization, is US Mk36 SRBOC historically compatible with SEWACO? Or is there a better choice? All I know is at that time Sea Gnat is still under development.

6) Is there any sonar that fitted for the cruiser in 80s (also for ASROC)? I originally think that SQS-23 would fit but it's quite old at that time.
Author:  acelanceloet [ May 16th, 2017, 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need help with electronics for AU cruiser
I think I can answer some of your questions:

- SPS-10 is an surface search radar, and serves as navigation radar as such. There are occasions known of 'civilian' radars fitted on warships so they can navigate on radar without mismatching too much with the civilian traffic, I do not know if this was common in the 60's as well.

- you would have to check the radar range of the SPS-01, but I do not think there would be real issues.

- the 2D and 3D part of the SPS-01 radar might have different frequency settings ( I cannot find good references for this right now) but she is listed as F-band. Note that on the tromps, the WM only does the NSSM and gun guidance and has no part of the tartar system, so I think you would not need another WM28 for the standard.

note that I updated that dutch AU you linked to here viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6421&p=151449&hili ... ds#p151449

- SRBOC is IIRC used on some dutch ships, as are some RN decoy launchers, so I think SEWACO is compatable or adaptable to most western systems

- SQS-23, SQS-26 or SQS-53 is what you would have to look at for ASROC, other then that the USN has IIRC no sonars compatible, although other navies might have more.

do note however a few things
- due to the british not buying, the 2 broomstick installations were prototypes. I would not buy more of them in the early 1980's unless in your AU there were more produced.
- Sea kings are huge, and fitting them belowdeck might end up being troubling :P
- SPS-01 needs a lot of cooling space below it, and is quite an heavy installation. by the 1980's, it might make more sense to go for DA-08 (later possibly replaced by SMART-S) and LW-08, as fitted on the heemskerck class air defence frigates. SPS-01 deserves and maybe even needs an purpose build superstructure, so your refit would change a lot!
Author:  phu2000 [ May 17th, 2017, 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need help with electronics for AU cruiser
Thank you acelanceloet. :D Maybe I will go with "RN chose Type 988 for Sea Dart ship" scenario. For Sea King I don't think it'd be a problem since Vittorio Veneto and Andrea Doria are able to operate them that way. (Actually, it's because I cannot put Mk13 on my ship with above deck hangar :lol: )

By the way, The reason I chose SPS-01 is that it's 3D radar since this cruiser is sole AAW ship in my AU navy (single ship for "cruiser battle group" as command and AAW ship, maybe similar to Dutch MSL in cruiser form) so she need to have full capability in that era......AFAIK DA08 is also 2D, isn't it? So won't she lack height finding capability?

I also would like to ask that what's the reason to use shorter range 2D D-band with 3D E/F-band radar :?: Like using SPS-49 along with SPS-48 on various USN cruisers. Because I'm also thinking about another option, using SPS-52C + LW08 or SPS-48E + LW08 (SPS-49 is comparable to LW08, right?)
Author:  erik_t [ May 17th, 2017, 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need help with electronics for AU cruiser
Everything Ace said is correct to the best of my knowledge.

10,000 tons is a big dang boat, and IMHO you'd be better off with split D-band 2D and E/F 3D installations, like SPS-39 and SPS-40 (or perhaps instead, SPS-17). SPS-01 necessarily had to be compact in order to fit on the island of a carrier, and this forced some design compromises that you might prefer to avoid. In the rotating-radar era, generally you wanted lower update rates (and therefore higher detection probability) on your longer-range 2D systems, with higher update rates on your 3D set. A system like SPS-01 can only rotate at one single rate, of course.

Traditionally, I can't think of any missile boat in the west that had a longer range 3D E/F-band radar than 2D D-band radar, at least for ships that carried both. SPS-49 certainly has a longer practical detection range than SPS-48, for instance. For a variety of reasons, a longer wavelength is pretty much always better for long range search (so long as you're not trying to detect targets much smaller than the wavelength).
Author:  Odysseus1980Mk2 [ May 17th, 2017, 8:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need help with electronics for AU cruiser
There is a real ship to look, the Italian converted light cruiser Giuseppe Garibaldi. And do not forget the French Colbert. Masurca was very similar with Mk10, it had two drums with 24 missiles each (48 total). However, none has hangar.

Ace did some years ago some AAW light cruisers for a Dutch AU, some with SPS-01, you can search for them too.

I imagine your cruiser being something like an enlarged Andrea Doria. Personally I did try to modify Andrea Doria and succeed in some point. I would install the SPS-01 in 1970's instead of early 1980's. Note also that in my universe, Canada purchased SPS-01 for AAW Iroquois Class derivative.
Author:  acelanceloet [ May 17th, 2017, 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need help with electronics for AU cruiser
Odysseus1980Mk2 wrote: *May 17th, 2017, 8:47 pm
Ace did some years ago some AAW light cruisers for a Dutch AU, some with SPS-01, you can search for them too.
These? I can think of no other SPS-01 ships I drew which were cruiser sized......... http://shipbucket.com/forums/viewtopic. ... 716#p96716
Author:  Odysseus1980Mk2 [ May 17th, 2017, 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need help with electronics for AU cruiser
Yes, exactly these.
Author:  phu2000 [ June 3rd, 2017, 7:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Need help with electronics for AU cruiser
Thank you erik, I misunderstood the range of those 2 radars.

Odysseus, to be honest in this AU it's really Abruzzi/Garibaldi exported to my AU country :lol: (AU Thailand, I rewrite the history of the country since 1870s and ended it in 2027) pre-war. I got this idea from reality that Thailand bought Italian cruiser, but it didn't complete before the war broke out, originally it's Etna-class but I changed it to Abruzzi/Garibaldi design (only hull & superstructure built in Italy).

Here is some basic information, there are other details that I wrote but I think it'd be too long to write it here. :oops: :oops: :oops:

She was originally fitted with 10x Bofors 15.2/55 gun (2 twin and 2 triple, base on the Model 1930 on Gotland), 4x2 8.8cm SK C/32 AA gun, 4x2 Bofors 40/60 (Swedish stabilized mount), 4x2 Madsen 20mm AA and export version (AU) of 61cm torpedo (use normal Kerosene-air wet-heater instead of Kerosene-oxygen) and equipped with German director (the late 30s 7m one they use to control 15cm gun). Later during mid-war, they replace Madsen with Oerlikon 20mm/70 and she got the FuMO-21 installed (it's German-Thai AU relations, I planned to deliver the blueprints via submarine).

Post-war she was upgraded with US radar & weapon set (SK air search, SG surface search, Mk34 director, Mk37 director, Mk53 director, 3"/50 Mk27, etc) to join the Korean war.

And then it's 60s upgrade and 80s upgrade. The 60s upgrade is meant to be nearly complete redesign of the superstructure, engine replacement and whole new armament (all 15.2cm removed, fore replace with Mk10 Terrier, aft replace with hangar). I checked the pic and understood that it won't be possible for this ship to store Sea King below deck in the position I planned, so I decided to remove rear Mk13 and use normal hangar instead (maybe able to fit 2-3).

........Now I'm not sure if I would go with Dutch radar set since 60s (along with the destroyer built in late-50s) or just use US set and change to Dutch in 80s. :?
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