Thanks for all the comments and feedback.
Is this better? The machine guns in the mast tops a 50cal browning watercooled which is why the barrels are so thick. The guns on the 0-2 level are 3" 50s.
![[ img ]](http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Latouche/Ships/ConnecticutClass/usa_connecticut_class_battleship_uss_connecticut_bb-18_4.png)
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| shading discussion http://67.205.157.234/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5060 |
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| Author: | Gollevainen [ March 24th, 2014, 8:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: USS Connecticut (BB-18) |
it looks really good, but as by the style, you need to color the railings according to their background, not just place the default grey atop the gold, but instead making it same color in darker shade. Also the masts, don't use the two-pixel black lines. They are only allowed in 3-4" caliber gun barrels. But otherwise its good drawing, and those minor issues seems to be ones that most make in their early drawings. |
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| Author: | bezobrazov [ March 24th, 2014, 11:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: USS Connecticut (BB-18) |
Golly, it's not gold, but buff, although the hue of that color, maybe is a bit too stark. But I agree with you about the - now mismatching railings. One or two shades darker than the superstructure buff should work. This should be applied to the main deck railings too. I've checked color photos or lithographs of the ship, and they all consistently show that. Otherwise a great drawing! Now if you might be kind to draw the Virginia, maybe I can finally entice myself to begin the Big Ten! |
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| Author: | Gollevainen [ March 24th, 2014, 11:27 am ] | |
| Post subject: | Re: USS Connecticut (BB-18) | |
This should be applied to the main deck railings too
Not IMO. since the idea is to present few centimeter thick lines with 15 centimeter pixels, One cannot get nothing but impression out of the railings in SB scale. Therefore the idea is the contrast that the railings would give against the background, be it the structures or the blank emptyness (white in our format). And against white background such stuff as lines tend to look only as dark shade from the distance the SB scale resembles, thus using the standard railing grey is sufficent for presenting the railing when its against empty background. Only if the railing structures are fixed and lot thicker than what we have normally, could it be justified to use the actuall color of these structures, but one has to really approach the 15 centimeter in order it to work within the scale and style. |
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| Author: | bezobrazov [ March 24th, 2014, 1:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: USS Connecticut (BB-18) |
Actually, Golly, yes! Historically, that would be the correct measure...but, of course, if you're prepared to tamper with historical accuracy, I give... However, when I do the Big Tens, don't expect me to follow that rule...the railings, in their "peace-time livery" will be a dark buff color, where appropriate. |
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| Author: | David Latuch [ March 24th, 2014, 6:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: USS Connecticut (BB-18) |
Thanks for all the comments and feedback. Is this better? The machine guns in the mast tops a 50cal browning watercooled which is why the barrels are so thick. The guns on the 0-2 level are 3" 50s.
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| Author: | Gollevainen [ March 25th, 2014, 8:35 am ] | |
| Post subject: | Re: USS Connecticut (BB-18) | |
Actually, Golly, yes! Historically, that would be the correct measure...but, of course, if you're prepared to tamper with historical accuracy, I give...
Nah, Its not about historical accuracy, but accuracy of our eyes. And the accuracy of the style and scale. Even if you have pitch black railings, in the distance the SB scale presents, you could not see them in way that would suffice any other way to present than darker hue of the background they are against. Always when you ponder how to draw something narrow and what color to use, try to imagine that 15 cm (half a foot for the metrically handicapped people) in front of you, and then from the distance that ship would be to appear same size as it does in SB scale on your screen. However, when I do the Big Tens, don't expect me to follow that rule...the railings, in their "peace-time livery" will be a dark buff color, where appropriate. SB scale just cannot present objects narrower or smaller than 15 cm within accurate colors. |
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| Author: | bezobrazov [ March 25th, 2014, 11:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: USS Connecticut (BB-18) |
Golly, I still beg to differ with you. Mind you, why have we been "harping" at various artists, when they've drawn camouflaged vessels to adjust the relevant railing sections to something similar to the dominant sectional camo shade? I did that with the 1964 version of the Göta Lejon, and I still regard that as one of my best accomplishments. I don't think anyone will argue that shading her railings was a bad or disruptive move. Hence, we need to, I believe, in such cases as this was, a liveried ship, where the railings historically were also painted in the dominant livery color - here buff color - then those must be so treated on the SB- rendition. We have come a long, very long way to the path of depictive accuracy and, one May want to say, perfection, not to adhere to such notions. |
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| Author: | Gollevainen [ March 25th, 2014, 12:02 pm ] | |
| Post subject: | Re: USS Connecticut (BB-18) | |
Golly, I still beg to differ with you. Mind you, why have we been "harping" at various artists, when they've drawn camouflaged vessels to adjust the relevant railing sections to something similar to the dominant sectional camo shade? I did that with the 1964 version of the Göta Lejon, and I still regard that as one of my best accomplishments. I don't think anyone will argue that shading her railings was a bad or disruptive move.
I cant recall that case but Back then I recall we didn't have lots of historical ships drawn and the railing issue was almost exclusively focused on scandinavian camoflage patterns. And the instance we are (hopefully both) talking about is when the railing doesen't face any structure with its distinquised paint behind, but when it faces the open air, or the blank white surface?In such case I still retain the point that what ever color that railing is, in the distance you would look it as presented by the SB scale, you could not determen its color, only that its darker than the sky behind it. Thus grey since sky is always white in SB sheets  Against the background this works as same way, since the distance. Only alternation would be if the railings would deliberatly be made from lot ligther color (eg pure white) and shown against very dark shade (Like in case some older Indian Navy vessels in 80's), then would one need to adjust some sort of compromise color of that railings true color. We can present accuracy on colors only on certain levels and when the painted things are large enough. When in small details, one has to forget the millimeter level accuracy and start thinking with SB terms, and terms of our art of exaggeration. |
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| Author: | bezobrazov [ March 25th, 2014, 1:28 pm ] | ||
| Post subject: | Re: USS Connecticut (BB-18) | ||
I cant recall that case but Back then I recall we didn't have lots of historical ships drawn and the railing issue was almost exclusively focused on scandinavian camoflage patterns. And the instance we are (hopefully both) talking about is when the railing doesen't face any structure with its distinquised paint behind, but when it faces the open air, or the blank white surface?
Yes we do, but what I am emphasizing is the fact that, in this instance, the USS Connecticut (BB-18), she had, when completed, her railings all in buff color with a fire proofed dark mahogany top. This simply cannot - should not be simplified the way you suggest. First of all, it will make an otherwise terrific drawing look rather spoiled and unreal for that matter.
In such case I still retain the point that what ever color that railing is, in the distance you would look it as presented by the SB scale, you could not determen its color, only that its darker than the sky behind it. Thus grey since sky is always white in SB sheets
I beg for forgivness, but this statement doesn't make much sense. We are to make an exception when something's whiter than SB-standard, but adamantly refuse it for objects actually darker - and most importantly - a wholly different shade than our "standard" railings. I still maintain, in order for SB to retain its huge credibility, we need to apply the accurate colors, regardless if it's a railing section or superstructure or hull!Against the background this works as same way, since the distance. Only alternation would be if the railings would deliberatly be made from lot ligther color (eg pure white) and shown against very dark shade (Like in case some older Indian Navy vessels in 80's), then would one need to adjust some sort of compromise color of that railings true color. To Mr. Latuch: I'm sorry if I inadvertently initiated a lengthy discussion about this topic and caused your topic to be derailed. I apologize for that! |
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| Author: | Gollevainen [ March 25th, 2014, 1:48 pm ] | |
| Post subject: | Re: USS Connecticut (BB-18) | |
Yes we do, but what I am emphasizing is the fact that, in this instance, the USS Connecticut (BB-18), she had, when completed, her railings all in buff color with a fire proofed dark mahogany top. This simply cannot - should not be simplified the way you suggest. First of all, it will make an otherwise terrific drawing look rather spoiled and unreal for that matter.
the color itself doesen't matter. As my point has been, You can't determ the color from the distance we are looking at it in SB scale. Its how the eye works. I know you want to give regconition to the actually accuracy, but in the limits of our style, it simply is impossible to be done without destroying the actuall style itself with something that just don't work.With railings and other narrow chords and lines, when we look at them, we only see it as something hazy, darker than the background. Only way when it stands more clearly out is when it is infact lot ligther in shade and color against dark back ground. But then, when you take this ligther shade against background that is ligther than itself is like sky and open air, (and presented as blank white in SB scale), then the railing again looks like darker hazle against the sky. And you still wouldn't be able to determ its color. In SB scale we cannot present it. We have to use the railing which by our style is mere mock-up of the actuall structure of the rails, since we cannot block the visuals behind the railings, just like the railing in reality wouldn't when looked from the said distance. Thus only way we can do is to mock-present something in its place, and that mock-presentation is from the hazled and dissorted difference between clear air and some narrow chord. I've tried and tested with the railings lot back in the days, so did MConrads and few other and we came into this afromentioned conclusion. You can try that logic in reverse case as well: Most things we show with dark grey are in real life actually black. Try to paint them black instead in SB drawing and see how it looks, since thats how we would need to do, if we would follow your logic. |
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