Shipbucket

The SR.177 was meant as a point-defence type, its role was to replace the Lightning as an interceptor. It would have worked in tandem with the bigger F.155T interceptors. I'm not convinced the SR.177 had a long future, even had the Germans brought it, the rocket would have been removed sooner or later due to the instability and problems using HTP. Then you are left with a fighter little-better than an F-104 and probably less multi-role capable.
The F.155T was not multi-role either, although some attempts were made to offer variants of the F.155T contenders for GOR.339 as basic nuclear bombers.

In reality the Sandys Defence Review of 1957 did the RAF a favour by getting rid of these highly specialised high-altitude interceptors. By the time they appeared in the early/ mid-1960s they would have been approaching obsolescence and would have added very little to what the Lightning could already do.

Nice to see the what-if Fairey Delta III. I was the artist back when I was still active over at What-If Modellers as a profile artist under the name 'Tornado'. Basically it was my attempt at a smaller Mirage type- Fairey Delta, basically a Mirage III pixel-bash with a new nose, Fairey intakes and tailpipes. Marcel Dassault famously said the Brits could have designed the Mirage ourselves, which was partly true, but the Operational Requirements at the time ensured that an Anglo Mirage would have been too specialised for interception, in effect the SR.177/ F.155T was 'our' Mirage, not the widely exportable French Mirage which was cheaper, simpler and more multi-role capable. Of course Sidney Camm and Hawker recognised this and poured their own money into the P.1121 multi-role fighter, but without official backing and support it was a non-starter. With it died the de Havilland Gyron engine which would have been ideal to replace the SR.177s Gyron Junior engine (though I'm not entirely sure it would have fit).

_________________
Hood's Worklist
English Electric Canberra FD
Interwar RN Capital Ships
Super-Darings
Never-Were British Aircraft

I have to agree with a lot of the points you raise there. The entire aviation industry in the UK post war seemed to fall into the trap of producing highly specialised or tailored designs that had little or poor export potential which should have really been a key design point in order to secure their own finances beyond the post-war cut backs in military spending and contracts.

_________________
"The first rule is not to lose; The second rule is not to forget the first rule"

Well I wrote a Master Dissertation on the thorny issue of RAF procurement in this period, so I've seen how on the one hand the Air Ministry wanted the best, the Ministry of Supply was unable to supply that (no pun intended!) and how the Cabinet kept looking for export of civilian aircraft to raise much needed foreign currency.

Its not all bad news, certainly Britain did very well out of exports of military types and has done for many years. Britain had unique defence requirements that most of her NATO and Commonwealth allies did not have and they lacked the money to buy specialised aircraft. Also, Britain lacked the diplomatic and economic clout to make NATO allies buy its aircraft rather than American and don't forget national industries were all vying to stay in business.

Also, the role of the national aircraft industry is to fulfil its nation's needs. The RAF was the prime buyer for the home industry so its requirements came first. Its a tricky balancing act, the Air Ministry doesn't really care about exports and the Ministry of Supply really did (though its attempt to keep the Germans interested in buying the SR.177 after the Sandys cut was more about saving themselves the cancellation fee they had to pay to Saro...)

I read an interesting article the other day about Sweden's defence industry and how the national defence industry has now been replaced by international foreign owned arms companies. Exports are at their highest but no longer do Sweden's arms manufacturers necessarily produce what Sweden needs for her defence. So we have gone full circle where exports and profits mean more than self-sufficiency in armaments.

_________________
Hood's Worklist
English Electric Canberra FD
Interwar RN Capital Ships
Super-Darings
Never-Were British Aircraft

Something like the Swedish tactic I had in my mind for Britain when started this thread. First built for domestic needs, export to Commonwealth Countries first and then to other customers.

-Could the What-If Fariey Delta III could be built?
-What about an SR.177 powered by an RR RB.106? Could this airframe modified for other roles?
-The best Lighting (concerning multirole capabilities) was the Saudi Arabian F.53, how this could used as a guide for other conversions?
-From all these F.155T was there one with large range for CAP in North Sea to work with an AEW aircraft?

Answers;

- There were plans for a single-engine development of the Delta, so yes it was possible
- An SR.177 with an RB.106 would be a good match, there were developments for a J-band AI.23 with CW to guide radar-guided Firestreak variants, and of course the AI.23 was adapted into the Blue Parrot TFR for the Buccaneer and TSR.2 so with some what-if its possible. With only 2-4 hardpoints under the wings the weapon load might be lower and adding rocket cell packs like the Lightning F.53s would be harder. Range would be an issue but at least it had provision for a refuelling probe from the start.
- Yes, see above. I think an F.53 with a VG wing would have been better but adding more complexity to an already difficult aircraft to maintain as probably not wise. I'd like the see the RB.106 in the Lightning too!
- I don't think I've seen range figures for the F.155T but its probably likely to be able to loiter over the North Sea, especially with tanker support.

_________________
Hood's Worklist
English Electric Canberra FD
Interwar RN Capital Ships
Super-Darings
Never-Were British Aircraft

So we will have the RB.106 powered Fairey III in RAF. Which are he most plausible export customers from all those "proposed" in the link about it? India and Australia definitely.
The range of the SR.177/RB.106 would be greater from Lighting in medium to high altitude?
Same timeline with the real for the Lighting, but RAF would also adopt the F.53 in service as Lighting F.7

AU RAF fighters "approved" : Fairey Delta III.F, SR.177, Lighting F.6/F.7.

Now Fleet Air Arm (template with several aircraft in SB-scale,all in compact form)

A thought of mine about aircraft carriers, but is necessary: After the cancellation of the original Queen Elizabeth Class, Royal Navy searched for finding another design. They return to the past and find the Malta Class (as there is in the bucket, but we start from late 1960's-early 1970's variant). Eagle and Ark Royal were also modernized, so my RN will have four aircraft carriers (plus 2 Invisible Class later as "Harrier Carrier/Helicopter Carrier"). The third of the Invincible class built for Australia to replace the old Majestic Class they had. Britain (AU) kept two Majestic in service as ASW platforms and replaced them with the Invincible Class.



Which of all these are the most plausible?


P.S If the Jaguar-M entered service, perhaps India will also be interested (since they had the land-base variant)

I'd forgotten about that little AU sheet I drew.
Some of those would look good in FD scale. Hmm, if I get time I might do that.

_________________
Hood's Worklist
English Electric Canberra FD
Interwar RN Capital Ships
Super-Darings
Never-Were British Aircraft

-What about adding two more pylons in fuselage of SR.177? (coping the US Crusader)

Royal Navy AU:

-Gannet AEW.7? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Faire ... rawing.png).
-Did the P.139 had potential?
-What about the Jaguar-M? France rejected it for developing the Super Etendard, but the Jaguar could be good as carrier aircraft and which type it would replace if entered service?
-Perhaps Sea Vixen and Scimitar could developed further, but personally I do not think that SR.177 had sea legs.
-What about the Sea Hunter?
-Perhaps an upgrade of Gannet ASW could cover the gap until P.139 or something else replace it. For the P.139AEW perhaps the radar from Gannet AEW7 could be used.
-I thought also a British variant of Dornier Do-31 when post my AU Do-31s, would this aircraft fulfill any requirements? Of course a variant with twin BS100 engines. For RAF or RN.
-Any information about BAC Type 573 Sea Viper?

Answers to your RN AU questions;

- Fitting fuselage pylons to the SR.177 would be difficult, the retractable refuelling probe was on the portside, just beneath the cockpit. A pair mounted lower on the fuselage might be possible I suppose, they would be limited to Sidewinder or small Mircocell rocket pods.
- That AEW.7 is just someone's very crude kitbash, why the hell that is on Wikipedia is anyone's guess. There is a germ of truth there though, a rotodyne system was considered at some point (I assume the US AN/APS-120) and I've drawn the proposal here: http://www.shipbucket.com/forums/viewto ... 20#p103509
- The P.139 had potential, its Frequency Modulated Interrupted Continuous Wave (FMICW) radar was certainly advanced for its day, but as ever the devil is in the details. The nose and tail antennas had to be linked together, we know what happened when they tried a similar system for the Nimrod AEW a decade later... So whether the radar system would have worked is open to question. Also, the engines would need developing from scratch. A pretty pricey project for a two-carrier fleet. Buying the E-2 might have been a more common-sense approach.
- Supersonic versions of the Sea Vixen (supersonic-ish) and Scimitar were proposed, the Scimitar developed ranged from interceptors with AI.23 radar and Firestreak to two-seat (side-by-side) strike aircraft. None had very much chance of being built.
- Sea Hunter was briefly proposed but soon dropped. I feel it was a possible fighter, especially with a lightweight ECKO radar for ranging etc. but probably not an important asset unless you were planning to fight in the Med facing loads of land-based MiGs etc. and of course being only gun-armed would be a limitation. It's on my list purely as a what-if that's cool!
- Jaguar M is tricky, first the British would need to find the cash to develop it alone. Second, you need a radar for it, so probably Blue Fox would be fitted or perhaps some kind of Blue Parrot development as a multi-role radar. I'm not sure where it would have fitted in on British carriers; I'd probably back the Buccaneer for the strike role but the Jaguar probably could have replaced it in the strike role with modern ASMs like Exocet rather than bombs, and of course it could still carry WE.177 too. I think the Phantom is probably the superior interceptor as an overall package of weapon systems, though given the constraints from operating the F-4 from the British carrier decks the Jaguar might have been an ideal replacement. So perhaps a Jaguar/ Buccaneer mix would have resulted.
- Do-31 is tricky, I can't think of any requirement that it would meet for either the RAF or the RN, other than perhaps the heavy-lift helicopter requirements that led to the purchase of Chinook.
- The BAC 573 is a typo, it should be the 583. That was a real Sea Vixen replacement planned with VG wings etc. Expensive for a solely RN aircraft, but there were attempts to interest the RAF I think.

_________________
Hood's Worklist
English Electric Canberra FD
Interwar RN Capital Ships
Super-Darings
Never-Were British Aircraft

-SR.177: That exactly I had in my mind.
-Since India did bought Jaguar, might Indians could be also bought the Jaguar-M together with a larger carrier (British of course). Latter would built in Britain for India.
-For AEW Britain purchased several AN/APS-120 for a revised Fairey Gannet (exactly that you draw, do not remember it)
-What about an ASW and COD variant of the E-2? Would this fit to Malta and Eagle Class carriers? Of course, a moderately modernized Gannet could be serve as interim solution. Perhaps in an AU scenario India bought the Gannet (instead of the Alize) and were willing to pay for modernization. Another scenario is to upgrade the Gannet with a mixture of French and British electronics to keep it more in service.
-For Sea Vixen, I mean an update of electronics mostly.
-A Jaguar/Buccaneer mix seems good indeed.

Which of real RN/RAF aircraft could not be developed to save money for other projects?