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Modern Auxiliary Challenge
http://67.205.157.234/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=10250		 Page 5 of 6
Author:  acelanceloet [ June 19th, 2021, 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Modern Auxiliary Challenge
eswube wrote: *June 19th, 2021, 10:15 am
But I have one further question: if that entry was not posted here, in the challenge thread, on the forum where the challenges are conducted and which is supposed to be the "base" of the SB community, then where it was posted for everyone to see and therefore be able to decide on their votes (as some apparently indeed saw and decided)?
(it is a rhetorical question, I think I know the answer and I don't think I like it :evil: )
It was posted on discord, but to aid in the voting process Kiwi Imperialist has been including the entries into the google poll ;) I would have preferred if all entries would be in the thread though, which has happened in a similar situation in the past (kiwi imperialist posted it as someone had trouble entering the forum then) which I think should be done again in the future, but I don't think there is any real issue with the voting or anything that requires strong dislike for the fact that it wasn't on the forum.

Btw, I really do consider the main site, discord, wiki and forum all cornerstones of the SB community. Not everyone is using all of them, and that isn't wrong, but there are also people on the discord who aren't on the forum who parttake in what happens in the community. So let's not grumble too much about one getting tiny advantages over the other every now and then, or we wouldn't be able to stop :P
Author:  Rainmaker [ June 20th, 2021, 3:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Modern Auxiliary Challenge
Regarding TimothyC and Acelanceloet's comments on the entries, I have a few thoughts to share as well as to how entries are judged. I feel that because the scope of the challenge was so broad (depict a fictional naval auxiliary that's in active service in the year 2021), it becomes very difficult to judge a drawing based on suitability.

If I'm asking myself if the requirements of the challenge satisfied by the design, and all I can ask myself is whether or not the drawing is a naval auxiliary with a binary yes or no response, anything that could remotely be considered an auxiliary must be given full marks, or I have to get more granular and try to decide whether the design fits the "spirit" of what would be considered a naval auxiliary. For example, is a command ship an auxiliary? Is a sail training vessel? Those seem to be more specialized roles, whereas if you asked most people, I think they would picture an auxiliary as being more of a general support vessel, such as a replenisher, tug, etc.

What this means is that an otherwise very competently executed drawing, such as TimothyC's command ship, might receive a lesser score in the category of suitability, simply because whether or not the ship itself is an auxiliary is debatable. Does a role for such a vessel exist in reality? Would the USN consider its role to be of an auxiliary nature or would a fast fleet command ship fall under some other category? Likewise, when I consider Acelanceloet's entry, which was tied for my personal favourite from an artistic standpoint along with Hood's entry, I have to ask the same question - is this vessel truly an auxiliary, or is it an LHD that happens to also have UNREP stations? Despite being a very interesting concept, I might be forced to award fewer points for suitability simply because it's difficult to determine whether or not this fits the spirit of the challenge.

All that being said - I guess the point that I'm making is that it becomes much easier to give fair, objective marks when it comes to judging a design if the requirements of the challenge are more focused in scope. Perhaps something to keep in mind for future challenges, and I hope that all the artists who created these fantastic and unique entries for this challenge won't feel too discouraged by what seems like unbalanced or undeserved scoring.
Author:  Hood [ June 20th, 2021, 9:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Modern Auxiliary Challenge
I feel the same as Rainmaker, all the challenges are fairly vague in terms of design requirements: "draw a tank, it should have a gun", "draw an aircraft carrier it should have a flightdeck", "draw an ironclad" are just too vague. The heavy bomber rules were also odd "The empty weight of the heavy bomber should exceed 11,000 kg (24,251 lb or 1.1 Grand Slams)" which had nothing really to do with the drawings other than to ensure they were multi-engine types.
I can't imagine anyone realistically scoring less than 8 unless they post a battleship for every challenge or pictures of cats because the design rules give so much latitude.

So therefore its hard to assess suitability. The realism score covers whether the design is actually workable or a disaster waiting to happen.
I generally always give 10 if it fits the spirit of the challenge; i.e. its a naval auxiliary therefore it fits and should score 10, if its a bit iffy in a grey area then maybe it gets an 8.
I don't think anyone here drew anything that wouldn't be classified as an auxiliary in say, Jane's, except for the JSS concepts and the rescue submarine, and even they are intended to be auxiliary ships in role.
Author:  eswube [ June 20th, 2021, 10:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Modern Auxiliary Challenge
acelanceloet wrote: *June 19th, 2021, 8:30 pm
It was posted on discord, but to aid in the voting process Kiwi Imperialist has been including the entries into the google poll ;) I would have preferred if all entries would be in the thread though, which has happened in a similar situation in the past (kiwi imperialist posted it as someone had trouble entering the forum then) which I think should be done again in the future, but I don't think there is any real issue with the voting or anything that requires strong dislike for the fact that it wasn't on the forum.

Btw, I really do consider the main site, discord, wiki and forum all cornerstones of the SB community. Not everyone is using all of them, and that isn't wrong, but there are also people on the discord who aren't on the forum who parttake in what happens in the community. So let's not grumble too much about one getting tiny advantages over the other every now and then, or we wouldn't be able to stop :P
Two things, if You allow:

1) If I - or any other person that does not use Discord - wanted to vote, then it shouldn't be my duty to find where the "missing" entry is and guess where else it could be. It's not here, period - so why should I (or any other...) be bothered to give it more points than round ZERO? (well, it seems logical - I haven't seen it, therefore I can't know if it deserves any more) So forgive me, but I think that clarity in that matter is also in the best interest of "only-Discord-using participants".

2) Well, regardless of my possible character flaws that could make me more keen to "grumble" in general, and regardless of how many "cornerstones" SB community would have, IMHO there should be one that's "officialy" "more equal" than others - and IMHO it should be one that where any discussions - and most importantly in this context: entries, statements, decisions regarding rules, policies or standards etc. matters affecting whole community - could be accessed (at the very least for mere "seeing it") most easily - without registering anywhere having to use any logins and passwords (yes, you need it to write here, but not to merely read), install any apps or whatever else - and that place seems to be this forum.
In other words: if I haven't seen something here, then (in the context of SB) I consider it non-existent and not feel bound by it.
(which also means, that if someone would make a most amazing drawing of some ship, which would get from other Shipbucketeers the biggest praise ever, but posted it only on Discord, then I would not upload it to the Archive - simply because I would have no slightest idea of it's existence and to me it could be equally well posted on the forum for Mongolian enthusiasts of goldfish)

@Rainmaker, Hood
Although I'm not a frequent participant in these, so don't really "have a horse in this race", I agree completely that the challenge themes are often just too vague - either - like here - regarding 'technical' requirements, or regarding 'chronological requirements' (Nuclear Attack Submarine or Interwar Fighter come to mind first).
Author:  heuhen [ June 20th, 2021, 10:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Modern Auxiliary Challenge
I think a challenge should be more like an Navy is sending out an request for design for a future vessel for it's ships, like Frigates, Destroyers, Carriers, etc.

where the requirement is strict and how can come up with the best alternative for that "Shipbucket" Navy in the challenge.

Oh, we are offtopic this topic, perhaps we should split it!
Author:  acelanceloet [ June 20th, 2021, 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Modern Auxiliary Challenge
eswube wrote: *June 20th, 2021, 10:18 am
1) If I - or any other person that does not use Discord - wanted to vote, then it shouldn't be my duty to find where the "missing" entry is and guess where else it could be. It's not here, period - so why should I (or any other...) be bothered to give it more points than round ZERO? (well, it seems logical - I haven't seen it, therefore I can't know if it deserves any more) So forgive me, but I think that clarity in that matter is also in the best interest of "only-Discord-using participants".
As said, it was in the google poll itself. The image and the description both. You would not need to look on the forums to vote on the entries. I personally always do, but you could have seen the entry in the google poll and based the scores on that.
Author:  Mitchell van Os [ June 20th, 2021, 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Modern Auxiliary Challenge
@eswube. The dude coulnd login because account issues. So they helped him still compete.
Author:  eswube [ June 20th, 2021, 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Modern Auxiliary Challenge
@Acelanceloet
It was still impossible to "just see" the entry without going "somewhere else" (perhaps it was just me and I didn't scrolled screen enough, but I think that after clicking the link to the poll in Kiwi Imperialist's post closing the challenge, one could just see the screen where the email and stuff was needed to proceed). One couldn't see it "before actually voting".

@Mitchell
I know that (managed to figure it out from the context). But my point is that they would help him even better if somebody (like Kiwi Imperialist) would just simply post that entry in lieu of original author (with appropriate explanation in the post - like it eventually happened anyway, just after I asked for it). I'd be all for such "emergency substitute posting".
Author:  acelanceloet [ June 20th, 2021, 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Modern Auxiliary Challenge
I don't see the problem with not being able to see a drawing to vote on it without actually voting, to be honest?
Author:  Kiwi Imperialist [ June 20th, 2021, 11:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Modern Auxiliary Challenge
eswube wrote: *June 19th, 2021, 10:15 am
@Kiwi Imperialist
Thank you for providing this entry. Much appreciated.

But I have one further question: if that entry was not posted here, in the challenge thread, on the forum where the challenges are conducted and which is supposed to be the "base" of the SB community, then where it was posted for everyone to see and therefore be able to decide on their votes (as some apparently indeed saw and decided)?
(it is a rhetorical question, I think I know the answer and I don't think I like it :evil: )
eswube wrote: *June 20th, 2021, 10:18 am
Two things, if You allow:

1) If I - or any other person that does not use Discord - wanted to vote, then it shouldn't be my duty to find where the "missing" entry is and guess where else it could be. It's not here, period - so why should I (or any other...) be bothered to give it more points than round ZERO? (well, it seems logical - I haven't seen it, therefore I can't know if it deserves any more) So forgive me, but I think that clarity in that matter is also in the best interest of "only-Discord-using participants".

2) Well, regardless of my possible character flaws that could make me more keen to "grumble" in general, and regardless of how many "cornerstones" SB community would have, IMHO there should be one that's "officialy" "more equal" than others - and IMHO it should be one that where any discussions - and most importantly in this context: entries, statements, decisions regarding rules, policies or standards etc. matters affecting whole community - could be accessed (at the very least for mere "seeing it") most easily - without registering anywhere having to use any logins and passwords (yes, you need it to write here, but not to merely read), install any apps or whatever else - and that place seems to be this forum.
In other words: if I haven't seen something here, then (in the context of SB) I consider it non-existent and not feel bound by it.
(which also means, that if someone would make a most amazing drawing of some ship, which would get from other Shipbucketeers the biggest praise ever, but posted it only on Discord, then I would not upload it to the Archive - simply because I would have no slightest idea of it's existence and to me it could be equally well posted on the forum for Mongolian enthusiasts of goldfish)
eswube wrote: *June 20th, 2021, 1:17 pm
@Acelanceloet
It was still impossible to "just see" the entry without going "somewhere else" (perhaps it was just me and I didn't scrolled screen enough, but I think that after clicking the link to the poll in Kiwi Imperialist's post closing the challenge, one could just see the screen where the email and stuff was needed to proceed). One couldn't see it "before actually voting".

@Mitchell
I know that (managed to figure it out from the context). But my point is that they would help him even better if somebody (like Kiwi Imperialist) would just simply post that entry in lieu of original author (with appropriate explanation in the post - like it eventually happened anyway, just after I asked for it). I'd be all for such "emergency substitute posting".
Thank you for your comments Eswube. As Acelanceloet explained, Schodact had trouble accessing the forum in a timely fashion. They shared their final entry on the Shipbucket Discord server in case they could not post it before the deadline, which is what eventuated. I included Schodact’s full entry in the final poll, complete with image and description, so their hard work would not be wasted by a technical hiccup. It should be noted that the infrastructure underlying this forum is a little rickety. Automatic password changes, for example, no longer work. However, it is clear that I could have handled this situation better. In future, I will post any entries included in this manner to the forum before the poll opens. I wish to assure you that the forum will remain the main avenue for submitting challenge entries. If someone shares a challenge entry on Discord, I expect them to post it here on the forum before the challenge deadline when it is possible for them to do so.
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