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RHAF (AU) vs THK (AU)
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Author:  odysseus1980 [ January 13th, 2014, 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  RHAF (AU) vs THK (AU)
We all know what happens in real world but here we are in an AU world.

In real world, I read that Turkey was not a full NATO member until late 1970's, when real Hellas left NATO (and returned later).The gap in NATO plans were fullfilled by Turkey, so became full member.

Now, in my AU scenario, Hellenic Kingdom became member of NATO in 1949 after signed the North Atlantic Treaty and never left. Turkey followed in 1952, because had common borders with Soviet Union, although did not became a full member. In both countries NATO (USA actually) bases were created like the real world.


I have written some for both air forces, but here comes the complete list of fixed-wing aircraft used from 1950. Lists include also aircraft of Navy Aviation, helicopters will follow after finished with fixed wing.Also I will include some scenarios from old Hellenic defense magazines, mostly from 1980's. Transport fleets, flying radars, trainers in separate post.

Note (?) before type means note sure about this type.


RHAF (AU)

Gloster Meteor (1949-1962)-Fought in Korea together with F-80 and AT-33
SHAF R-54 (1954-1982)-Last airframes withdraw from Cypriot Air Force
SHAF R-55A/B/C/D/E/K (1960-2003). One is being refurbished to fly again.
SHAF R-57 (1967-2012)-Last airframes withdrawn from Cypriot Air Force (several remain on reserve)
F-84G/F (1954-1980)-From 1972 in reserve, from 1980's appeared as gate guards, museum exhibits or scrapped.
RF-84F (1956-1983, one test platform until 1991)
CL-13 Sabre Mk1/Mk2/Mk4 (1952-1989)-The Mk4 were modified for carrying Falcon and Sidewinder missiles, from early 1970's passed to Air Guard. Last CL-13 of RHAF were those of acrobatic team "Aegean Arrows", inherited from "Hellenic Flame" in 1967.
F-86D Sabre (1961-1983)-Falcon missiles also used.
Buccaneer S.52A/B/K (1964-present)-Modernized to S.52M spec with more powerful RR Spey, some electronics from A-7E, some Israel also, new weapons

F-104G/M (1960-2005)-RHAF withdrawn them in 2003, last airframes phased out from RHNA in 2005.All F-104M had folding refuel probe, some -G also. The -M was actually an -S with refuel probe, some had the ultimate J-79 from the Kfir
Mirage IIIEG/RG (1968-1996)-Some modernized in early 1980's for Magic 550, 530F and other weapons. In 1970's they wired for R530, which used also in Mirage F-1.

P6M (1972-present)-Modernized in 1990's, under the program "RHN of 21st century", in 2008 they received Chimera II and Kh-15P/S. Also I will update my text about the P6M.

Avro Shackleton MR.3 (1957-1987)
P-3H (1988-present)-Modernized in late 1990's (posted), engines upgraded to T-56-A15+ in 2000's by HAI
F-4EG (1972-2012)-Had the probe refuel system from F-4B,split into 2 variants in late 1980's (fighter/bomber and interceptor) and modernized in 1990's.On reserve since November 2012.

RF-4EG (1974-present)-Photo Reconnaissance equipment upgraded gradually, some can carry ASTAC system.
Mirage F-1CG/EG (1975-present)-The "CG" upgrate is actually "E", received also the 9K-50M engine with 8560kg thrust, some modified for AM-39 Exocet and Adis II, also can use ARMAT and laser guided weapons. Only user in RHNA, with two squadrons of Exocet equipped F1EGM. Rest F1 airframes are stored for spares.
Mirage 2000EG/DG/-5G Mk1/2 (1985-present)-The backbone of RHAF, first modernized to SEAD, Anti-Ship and -D spec (three variants, D is the ground strike Mirage 2000, -5 can carry Scalp and Chimera. -E variant are the older airframes, RHAF has a squadron of Anti-Ship M2k, while many received IRIS-T missiles. With indigenous developed multi-missile racks an awesome load of missiles can be carried.
Rafale-H (future) (2010-present,on production)
Su-35Γ (future) (from 2015)
VC-10K(H) (1986-present)

THK (AU)

F-84G/F
RF-84F
F-86E
F-86D
(?)RF-101A (1960-1982)-Used for reconnaissance missions above HLK and Cyprus, some over USSR (mainly on "European Russia")

F-100D/E/F/G (1956-1990)-Last THK F-100 in service were of -G, replaced with SEAD variant of F-16A
F-102A/TF-102A (1960-1982)-Makes more sense in THK service, since Turkey is closer to former Soviet Union and in NATO plans of the era those F-102 would indercept Soviet bombers above Black Sea
F-5A/B and RF-5A. Also used the NF-5A.B (second hand from Nederlands). Phased out in late 1990's
F-5E/F Ordered in late 1970's, several still in service, received a modernisation program in 1990's. Some modified to "Combat Trainers" in 2000's.
F-4E (1975-present)-Modernised in two variants, similar with RHAF. One squadrom modified to carry Harpoon missiles and passed to TNA. Revealed in 1987. Total 8 squadrons use the F-4E (includes also the TNA Harpoon-Phantom).

RF-4E (1977-present).Received several surplus-Luftwaffe airframes in early 1990's (RHAF also)
(?)F-16A/B (1982-present)-Replaced the F-102A, later modified to SEAD (two squadrons) other to fighter/bombers (two squadrons)
F-16C/D (1987-present)-Backbone of THK, in service from 16 squadrons

(?)P5M (1964-1993)-For many years were the long range patrol aircraft of TNA (AU), received a small modernisation in early 1980's, the second phase (T-64 engines, new radar, Sea Skua missiles) cancelled

S-2A/E (1969-2011)-Modernised to Turbo Tracker in 1980's and received new electronics. Some modified for carrying Sea Skua
CN-235T (1988-present)-Mainly transport aircraft, is here because some are used by the Coast Guard for Maritime Patrol
C-295MT (2009-present)-Replaced the Trackers, carry modern ASW systems, US radar, Harpoon and Sea Skua missiles

English Electric Canberra (1958-1990's)
Panavia Tornado (1990-present)-80 units were ordered in 1987-1988 to replace the Canberra. All were the IDS variant, configuration very similar with Saudi Arabian Air Force export Tornadoes. About 10-12 were wired for AGM-88 HARM missiles, but they are not a full ECR variant. More airframes received surplus from Germany in 2000's.

KC-135T (real variant is -R, the -T has boom refuelling system only). In early 1990's THK received 7 KC-135A and after 10 years of use rebuilt with CFM-56 engines and new glass cockpit. Refueling system remains the same with the KC-135A.

(?)KC-10T (4 modified ex commercial airframes, boom refueling system only, reversed engineered from KC-135A, no side door).

F-35A/B (future)-The A variant is the real, some sources say that Turkey wants to buy also F-35B (will do in my AU scenario)
Author:  odysseus1980 [ January 14th, 2014, 9:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RHAF (AU) vs THK (AU)
Numbers for both Air Forces are:

RHAF (AU)

~200 Mirage 2000 (all variants)
100 Rafale-E (20 more to built
~100 Tornado (~80 IDS, 20 ECR)
10 VC-10KH
6 AC-122 AWACS
2 AC-122 EW
4 AC-122 GS

Naval Aviation

24 Tornado-N
12 P-3H (2 training)
20 Y-4B (large seaplane)

Total number: ~470

THK (AU)

~370-380 F-16 (all variants)
~140-150 F-4E (all variants)
~70-80 F-5 (all variants)
80 Panavia Tornado (IDS)
10 CN-235 TCG
8 KDC-10 (fitted with probe from KC-135E locally)

Naval Aviation

12 C-295TN
16 F-4EN (capable of firing Harpoon)

Total number: ~640
Author:  odysseus1980 [ August 27th, 2014, 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RHAF (AU) vs THK (AU)
In an old defense magazine (I think of 1982) said about an Hellenic Air Force with E-2 Hawkeye, F-14 Tomcat, B707K describing a scenario about defensing Aegean.
Author:  Trojan [ August 27th, 2014, 8:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RHAF (AU) vs THK (AU)
The Tomcat is extremely expensive to buy and operate especially if you are using AIM-54 Phoenix missiles with them. On the other hand excluding the F-15 Eagle, its the best western interceptor of the era. I think if you did this, you would need some major restructuring, for example the Mirage 2000 probably couldn't be operated out of cost unless you buy them in the 90s.
Author:  odysseus1980 [ August 28th, 2014, 3:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RHAF (AU) vs THK (AU)
This was a plan too ambitious and expensive. Moreover, the magazine said about one squadron of Tomcat. Even in late 1990's real Hellas could not afford more than 30-40 F-15, perhaps some more (about 10-15 later). But I think if real Hellas bought F-15 in 1980's simply more F-16 would follow without Mirage 2000. The Mirage F-1 would phased out earlier.

On the other hand HLK never thought to buy Tomcat or F-15, however did considered the E-2C Hawkeye in early 1990's. But finally decided not to buy Hawkeye, due to the usual USA limitations. The solution was the AC-122 AWACS, carrying the EL-M 2075 based MARAC/Intrakom M271A radar, which development started in 1994 in close cooperation with Israel. It became operational in 2002 with RHAF (AU). The system has 9 consoles developed by ISI. None has ever seen the operational aircraft inside except from RHAF nor many details are revealed, in defense press and exhibitions the prototype was used for demonstration.

Turkey (AU) went as in real world for the B737 MESA, which slowly entering service from 2012.
Author:  odysseus1980 [ January 6th, 2015, 7:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RHAF (AU) vs THK (AU)
RHAF in 2028

Fighters

?
120 Rafale-E2
60 M2000-9++ (the ultimate M2000, with many electronics from Rafale,canards and upgrated M53 engine)
80 (+80 on order) Sukhoi T-50Γ
40 (+60 on order) AC-500F (light fighter based on KAI F-50, powered by M88, designed and built 100% in HLK)

AEW,Tanker,etc

8 AC-122B AWACS Mk2* (Radar M271B, "equivalent" with MESA)
4 AC-122B GS* (Ground Surveilance)-Nicknamed the "Hellenic J-STARS", the AC-122GS features the M241 radar, based on the old EU project SOSTAR. In service since 2014.
10 A330-200K (all ex-OA, four were combi with side door)

12 UCAV Neuron
24 UCAV Ghost Mk1 (indigenous design developed from Neuron)

Naval Aviation

20 M2000-9N+ (will be replaced by AC-500N)
20 SP-100 (twin engined medium seaplane developed from European AAA project)
22 AS-332F2 Super Puma (rebuilt and upgrated AS332 with Turbomeca Makila 2 engines built under lisence and indigenous ASW/AS elctronics). The -F2 appeared in 2018.
36 AH-139F (ASW/AS variant with indigenous electronics and avionics)
20 Y-4B2

WIG Aircraft (in service with Navy)

24 Poseidon (Pr.1222.1)-in service with RHN Seals and Army Amphibious Special Forces
16 Proteus (Pr.1222.2)-Amphibious WIG aircraft with 80 tn useful load


THK (AU) in 2028

160 F-35 total (120 -A and 40 -B on two LPH)
40+ T-1 (Ottoman developed twin engined fighter)
250+ F-16 Block 60 Adv+

AEW,Tankers, Naval Aviation etc

12 KC-777
8 B737-700 MESA Adv
12 P-8TN Poseidon
Author:  odysseus1980 [ January 6th, 2015, 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RHAF (AU) vs THK (AU)
In the previous scenario with Hawkeye and Tomcat the A-6 Intruder was the light bomber, not the A-7.
Author:  JSB [ January 6th, 2015, 8:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RHAF (AU) vs THK (AU)
Why is RHAF is a NATO member is it using SUs ?

Why would it not join in with NATO/EU projects and build its own Eurofighters/Rafales ? (or join with Sweden and develope/build Gripens ?)

JSB
Author:  odysseus1980 [ January 6th, 2015, 8:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RHAF (AU) vs THK (AU)
I am not sure about the Su-35, but the T-50 is sure. HLK planned to buy Eurofighter in mid 1990's, but the rising cost finally led to left the progarm and went for Rafale-H, which is capable of using both Iris-T missiles and Meteor. These missiles were integrated to M2000-5 & -9. RHAF Rafale's can use also Scalp-EG, AFDS anti-runaway weapon, Apache and Chimera/Ehidna. Latter integrated to T-50Γ as well.

Cyprus orders Gripen to replace the Mirage IIIEM, all ex-RHAF units. This Gripen integrates Israeli weapons together with European. Total 60 airframes, built in Sweden and some systems integrated by SHAF.
Author:  odysseus1980 [ July 31st, 2015, 7:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RHAF (AU) vs THK (AU)
Time for helicopters for my AU scenario (and revised Navy Aviation)

Hellenic Army Aviation

6 Mil Mi-26Γ
22 CH-47SD Chinook (6 with refueling probe)
64 AS-532HL Mk.1 (License made together with Navy, Air Force and Fire Brigade). 2 lost in accidents.
24 AS-532HL Mk.2 (with refueling probe)
60 EC-665HL Tiger (attack helicopter)
~90 UH-1M/AB-205A2 (1800hp Lycoming T-53, newer avionics etc).Total Hellenic Army received about 140 airframes. Being replaced with the indigenous Project HC-300 helicopter.
42 A-109HL (co-produced with Agusta. In service with Island Defense Forces as light attack and transport. 6 lost in accidents.
58 AS-341/342HL Gazelle (served as main attack helicopter before the Tiger. Scout role also). In service also with Police, Gendarme, Forest Service and Coast Guard. Total 140 units were manufactured under license, including 32 for Cypriot National Guard and Police.
40+ Indigenous training helicopter (Project HC-80). In service with other armed forces as well for training (expect Navy)

Royal Hellenic Navy Aviation ((includes fixed wing aircraft also)

8 AS-321H Super Frelon (transport or mine warfare). Rebuilt with Turbomeca Makila I engines and new gearbox.
20 AS-332FH Super Puma (4 EW, 12 ASW/AS and 4 SAR). Modernized in 2000's.
36 AB-212A2 ( 6 EW, 12 AS, 18 ASW). 38 total assembled by HAI plus 14 for Coast Guard and 4 "iced" variants for HCPR. Modernized slowly in three small programs. Capable of firing ASM-14 missile, a small indigenous semi-active missile analog to Sea Skua.
10+ SA-319H Alouette III (a "hot" variant of Alouette III, built under lisence in 1960's and early 1970's together with Alouette II). Mainly in training role since 1988.
12 P-3H Orion (ordered in early 1980's, modernized with indigenous electronics plus some foreign). They are the only Orion without Harpoon missiles in their weaponry. 2 are used for training.
20 SHAF Y-4B (S-4M in English, Seaplane-4 Modernized). Indigenous developed large seaplane analog to Japanese ShinMaywa US-2. Uses licensed made Allison T-56-A15+ engines and is bit larger from US-2. Developed from P-5M Marlin (HLK had received 36 P-5M total in late 1950's-early 1960's, of which 12 served with Coast Guard).
A fighter modified for anti ship role (24 airframes)

Ottoman Army Aviation (AU Turkey)

24 S-80T Super Stallion (in real world, Turkey did consider of ordering Super Stallion in late 1990's according to my sources. Here they ordered it.)
120 S-70A/B Black Hawk (manufactured under license in three batches. Some serve in CSAR role with 2 winches-one each side.). 50 more in service with Ottoman Gendarme
100+ S-70T on order (special developed variant for Ottoman Army needs. Will be manufactured under license, fourth batch of S-70).
150 UH-1/AB-205 (many variants, fleet partly modernized). Another 60 in service with Gendarme. Total more than 300 airframes acquired.
30 AB-204A/B (being withdrawn).
40+ AB-206B Training/connection
30+ TH-300 (licensed Hughes 269). In service with Navy, Air Force and Gendarme also (total 120). Training.
60+ AH-1P/S/W Cobra (being replaced with an indigenous attack helicopter. For this AU scenario, they will have some different from real world).
32 AH-64D Apache (AU, ordered to counter Hellenic EC-665 in early 2000's). None has Longbow radar.

Ottoman Navy Aviation (includes fixed wing aircraft also)

12 AB-204B (Total 20 ordered from Italy in 1971). Training only
24 AB-212 (3 EW, 12 ASW, 12 AS with Sea Skua)
28 S-70B (AGM-65F, Sea Skua for anti ship role)
12 C-295TN (replaced the modernized S-2ET from 2013).
(22 S-2E were modernized in late 1980's to early 1990's, similar with Taiwanese S-2T).
At least 16 F-4E modified to anti-ship role with Harpoon missile (I am sure it can be done, they say that there is no Western weapon which cannot be fired by a Phantom).
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