Shipbucket

Inspired by Krakatoa HMS Canada I have a question ?

I always think that GB should have sold off some of its fleet pre WNT, It would have made the treaty environment much more fun to have a load of old ships around and I'm sure you could have got slightly more than scrap for them ? (accept its maybe a bit with hindsight )

In 1918 the RN has,

15' (not going to sell any of these, although I would like to sell the Rs maybe promise them to France after we complete the replacements)
Hood x1 BB (building +3 to be cancelled)
R&R x2 BC (refit & repair)
R class x5 BB (slow)
QE class x5 BB (best ships)
C class x3 (useless and converted to CVs)

14'
Canada x1 BB (sell as its an odd calibre or swap to 13.5s ?)

13.5' (Would like to sell as they are not obviously pre Jutland designs and will be obsolete in a few years, but quite new if hard used)
ID class X4 BB (sell ?)
KVG class x4 BB (sell ?)
E x1 BB (basically a KVG/ID mix)
O class x 4 BB (definitely sell)
T x1 BC (not sure we want want more BC in the world but I'm sure it would sell if we are willing)
L x2 BC (as T)


12' (mostly worn out and old)
Agincourt x1 BB (sell its quite new 5yrs, but week guns)
C class x2 BB (only 8 years old)
N x1 BB (8yrs)
ST V class x2 BB (9 yrs geting old)
B class x3 BB (old)
D x1 BB (old)
IND x2 BC (old and knackered and we don't want more BC in the world)
INV x2 BC (old and knackered etc)

What about being helpful allies and selling the 13.5 ships to France and Italy (they are better than anything they have) with a promise down the line to sell/replace them with the Rs when we have finished are next set of BBs ?
The other ships are sold to anybody with a bit of cash (I would see buyers for Agin and c class at least + Canada)

What do you think and what would sell ?
JSB

Howdy JSB,

Where you sell them to will depend on what you want your AU to do. If you do what I do and sell Chile the 3 KGV 13.5's, then Brazil is likely to buy a couple of Orions and Argentina would not want to be left out and could possibly purchase a couple of the US 12" gunned ships to bring their numbers up to 4. Argentina would be likely to want to buy/build a 14"/15" ship to make up the difference in the fleet powers.

There are two ways you can enhance European powers.
No Scapa Flow scuttling takes place and all the German ships are available to sell/discard/scrap. That would include the 90% odd nearly completed ships. These could then be distributed between the victorious Allies. That would allow Argentina to also purchase German ships in place of the US ships. Argentina purchases the uncompleted Mackensen and has it finished for them. That would be the Queen of the South American ships.
The other way is to sell off the excess UK ships to European powers and the German ships remain scuttled. This would alter the number of ships available to sell to South America. Maybe substitute the Agincourt and the Neptune, with cruisers and destroyers to Chile for the Canada.

Lots of interesting scenarios can be thrown up just by altering the disposition of the excess UK-US BB's and BC's.

I think the RN would sell anybody Mackensen class BCs over its dead body But loads of slow pre Jutland BBs,
a) Look like good value capital ships in 1918
b) total worthless by 1925 when they are to week and to slow to live in a world with G3s

The 13.5 ships would be a good deal (at the right price) as they are the most powerful BBs in the world outside RN(12x15' ships)/USN(8x 14')/IJN(4x14') in service in 1918.

JSB

This is pretty interesting...

If an agreement was reached with Turkey it could include their battleships ordered per-war. The RN would REALLY have to offer a discount (or accept the amount paid prewar), as Turkey was pretty badly off. Ditto Greece, which also had units under construction in British yards:

Turkey
Erin
Agincourt: Possible substitute could be an Orion class to have two BB with 13.5 inch guns. Erin was built like she was to use Turkish docking facilities as per Breyer, and an Orion would be about the same size.

There could be a few more units floating around there, but these would be the major ships.

Greece
CL Birkenhead & Chester
3 surviving modified M class DD, possibly with a fourth surplus M thrown in.

-Modified M Class: Are these the Medea-class destroyers?
-CL Birkenhead & Chester: These could be useful also.

For my AU the Medea would be passed in "second rate" DD after the program of new modified "F" and "H" DD and the CLs will be modified to mine laying-cruisers, as the Elli (1914-1940).

They are indeed Medea class, OD.

The Medeas were a private design roughly similar to their various Royal Navy "M" class contemporaries. They had three funnels, the foremost of which was taller, and unusually, the mainmast was taller than the foremast, giving rise to a distinctive appearance. They shipped three single QF 4 inch guns, one on the forecastle, one between the first two funnels and the third on the quarterdeck.

https://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=mcaf ... destroyers

Well, I am seriously interested in acquiring the Medeas and the CLs Birkenhead & Chester for my AU.

Did anyone apart from the USA, who didn't need them have the cash to buy the ships anyway ?

I would have thought the South Americans would have done well out of WW1 supplying foodstuffs to the Allies.

And what about Salamis? Garlicdesign has offered a scenario whereby Salamis was completed with Skoda guns (4x2) by the Germans and gets into Greek possession via Japan. Would it have been possible to order guns from Skoda and complete her anyway for the Greek navy? One wonders whether the Allies would have allowed it even if it was possible. I can imagine the Italians pitching a major fit, as she would be better than any Italian battleship. Keep in mind Greece was not a signatory to the WHT for that matter. Would they have been under your AU?

As for other ships, one of the keys here is selling BEFORE the Washington Naval Treaty. After that, once a capital ship is designated for scrapping it has to scrapped, or sunk as a target, or whatever. No transfer of guns or etc. The UK could sell its old 11-inch and 12-inch BB/BC for ready cash, as those ships are certainly not going to be part of a postwar RN as they are obsolete. A smaller navy that buys these ships before 11/21 could always have them refitted between the wars with bulges, oil-fired boilers, improved AA and other features.