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RE Tartar DE(g) Challenge
http://67.205.157.234/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5125		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  JSB [ April 16th, 2014, 10:25 pm ]
Post subject:  RE Tartar DE(g) Challenge
Reading through old threads I found Tartar DEG challenge by acelanceloet and this inspired me to have a try, but started in a new post in case thread zombieing is considered a crime :) .
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3313&hilit=tartar+ ... elanceloet

[quote]the order is to create an warship that is cost efficient. You may shrinkwrap the ship like an perry, but of course this drives the cost per ton displacement up quite a bit. Try to make an ship as simple and cheap but at the same time as effective as possible. Try Commissioned: between 1958 and 1968
Displacement: max 5000 tons full load, but smaller is an plus
Speed and range should be suitable for carrier escort, so an top speed of min 30 knots, and the ability to hold this speed.
Weapon requirement: has to be able to do air defense using the tartar missile system. Other equipment is up to the designer, but is secondary in nature. [/quote]

So, built for Canada (how else to mix USN (electronics/missiles) /RN (hull/helicopter) stuff ;) )
1)Try to make an ship as simple and cheap. I was attracted to a very cheap ship !
2)Has to be able to do air defense using the tartar missile system. Built for Canada so will mostly be escorting ships out in the Atlantic, away from hostile land (so limited AA needed v big Anti shipping aircraft) and ASW also needed as priority(Helicopter/ASROC/TT/Limbo).
3)should be suitable for carrier escort. (can it be a Majestic class aircraft carrier ? :twisted: not sure my ship has the Speed/fuel to keep up with a CVN !)

I used Portsmouth Bill's Whitby class as a base for my batch III Type 12 MT (after Rothesay class, or Type 12M frigates )to be built early 1960's in Canada and offer my design below. (WIPish)
[ img ]
(note hangar is slightly offset from centreline)
I hope this will come out under 5000t :lol: although it probably only carries 15 tartar (+ 6 ASROC (or more) + 3 harpoons later on ? do I really need 2 spg 51 to counter the odd bear anti shipping aircraft ?).
Any comments welcome (and any links about radars ! would be loved ).

Thanks JSB
Author:  eswube [ April 17th, 2014, 7:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE Tartar DE(g) Challenge
I sincerely doubt if You could launch Tartar from Mk.112 launcher. I read somewhere it's possible with Harpoon, but that's beyond the timescale of original challenge. And generally it makes on me an impression of being overloaded, but maybe I'm wrong.
Author:  odysseus1980 [ April 17th, 2014, 10:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE Tartar DE(g) Challenge
MK112 ASROC can launch Harpoon and RGM-66E Standard. Latter was indeed tested in Knox Class, but eventually replaced by Harpoon (due to larger range and warhead). The ship is very overloaded and a lager hull is needed.
Author:  JSB [ April 17th, 2014, 10:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RE Tartar DE(g) Challenge
Quote:
I sincerely doubt if You could launch Tartar from Mk.112 launcher.
acelanceloet and others in the challenge thread seamed to think it was ok ?
Quote:
- Mk 112 Launcher, filled with 2 ASROC, 2 Harpoon, 4 Tartar
- ASROC reload system for the Mk 112, with 16 reloads ( reloading the abovementioned 'tubes', 2 reloads for each)
Quote:
generally it makes on me an impression of being overloaded.
I started with a Type 12 or Whitby-class frigate (2,560 tons full load) and then stretched her a bit, 3000t (ok to lose a bit a speed as my CV HMCS Bonaventure can only do 24.5 knots ).

removed -
-4.5 twin,
-Stagg 40mm,
-1 of the limbos

added -
-MK 112 (+ reloads),
-Loads of radars (thinking if I can cut some of them out for a austere frigate fit (do I need 2 tartar [SPG 51] guidance radars as I'm not going to stop a big raid due to missile numbers anyway but maybe I need them to cover reliability ? Do I need Air search 2d [SPS12] and air search 3d [SPS 39] + maybe/surface search [SPS 10] or can they do each others job, if only badly ?),
-Helicopter (pad/folding hangar)

does that add up ?
Thanks JSB
Author:  JSB [ April 17th, 2014, 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE Tartar DE(g) Challenge
WIP cut down for my small hull,
lost - my 2d air search radar, one SPG 51, sat coms, hangar (CV will carry the helicopters) and one 40mm (gained 2 light 20mm).
Should be lighter (and cheaper)

[ img ]

Hum to go with a hangar or the 40mm what would be better ?

JSB

PS does anybody have any good reference websites on cold war radars etc ?
Author:  Hood [ April 17th, 2014, 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE Tartar DE(g) Challenge
In the real world, it was found that adding Tartar or any kind of similar SAM system to a Type 12 or even a Leander hull was impossible without seriously adding weight and cost to the hull at the expense of speed and range.

Using an Mk.112 launcher is certainly novel. I wonder whether you really need Limbo if you've got ASROC unless you anticipate operations in shallow waters/ ice areas where sonar could be confused.
Author:  acelanceloet [ April 17th, 2014, 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE Tartar DE(g) Challenge
I think the limbo, torpedo tubes and ASROC overlap just a bit too much. the nuclear depth charge version of ASROC is something I doubt about as well.

note that tartar was primarely fired from the Mk 112 as anti-ship missile before harpoon was available.
I used it on the DDG-2 teacher for the sake of getting away with the Mk 22 compared with the Mk 13, all around cover making up for the lower missile load. I would not suggest it an good idea to fit only an Mk 112 for this role, though.

the broad beam leander might have just been big enough to get an Mk 22. as it is, it was developed but never used for that purpose, IIRC.
Author:  Charwhick [ April 17th, 2014, 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE Tartar DE(g) Challenge
Why are you using the can antenna on SPS-39? Afaik it was only used on a couple early ships with the system.
Author:  JSB [ April 17th, 2014, 5:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE Tartar DE(g) Challenge
Charwhick
Quote:
Why are you using the can antenna on SPS-39? Afaik it was only used on a couple early ships with the system.
ERR... because I know next to nothing about anything post WW2 ? :roll: :lol: :oops:

JSB
Author:  heuhen [ April 17th, 2014, 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RE Tartar DE(g) Challenge
JSB wrote:
Charwhick
Quote:
Why are you using the can antenna on SPS-39? Afaik it was only used on a couple early ships with the system.
ERR... because I know next to nothing about anything post WW2 ? :roll: :lol: :oops:

JSB
"use google Luke, use google." :lol:
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