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HMS Sophia
Post subject: Re: "Red Alert"-class ocean escort leader, USSRPosted: December 17th, 2011, 4:26 am
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Over the Atlantic with drop tanks, the F-15 can easily range the mid at the very least...


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Carthaginian
Post subject: Re: "Red Alert"-class ocean escort leader, USSRPosted: December 17th, 2011, 5:25 am
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Dilandu wrote:
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Frankly, those B-52's will have a fighter escort
Or yeah. In the middle of Atlantic.
ROFFL... dude, with FASTs equipped on two pylons, the F-15 can damn near cross the Atlantic armed (though the pilot would have to watch his fuel consumption). They have a combat radius of 1,061 nautical miles, and this can be extended more with a decrease in missile load.
Also- if you are unaware- there are these ships called 'aircraft carriers' which are, essentially, landing strips and gas stations that float and move around as needed! :shock: They also happen to carry aircraft which work for the same boss as the B-52's and F-15's that you mention, and- believe it or not- are trained to cooperate with them at any time that Navy and Air Force are not playing football against each other. :lol: This means that the B-52's could have an escort that, theoretically, could follow them literally around the world; given the location of allied bases and possibility of mid-air refueling, this is not a boast, it is a fact... well, a fact limited only by the size of the pilot's bladder.

Dilandu, do you not understand any of the tactical training or combat doctrines employed by the militaries of the world? No weapon, delivery system, or even lone soldier works in a vacuum. Everything meshes into a network that supports and complements the other parts.

This is why a design such as your fails- it attempts to work in a vacuum, without taking into account any of the other parts involved.


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Dilandu
Post subject: Re: "Red Alert"-class ocean escort leader, USSRPosted: December 17th, 2011, 5:44 am
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Oh, yes. There was only a little question - would not it be in carriers other concerns at this time (let's say, to beat off the attacks of MRA, submarines, enemy base and carrier-based aircraft ...)

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HMS Sophia
Post subject: Re: "Red Alert"-class ocean escort leader, USSRPosted: December 17th, 2011, 5:47 am
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You know a nimitz can carry around 36 F-18's (12 of them E's) as standard right? I think they can spare 6 for a bomber escort considering thats all it would take to not only overwhelm your little ship and its fighters...


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Carthaginian
Post subject: Re: "Red Alert"-class ocean escort leader, USSRPosted: December 17th, 2011, 5:54 am
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Dilandu wrote:
Oh, yes. There was only a little question - would not it be in carriers other concerns at this time (let's say, to beat off the attacks of MRA, submarines, enemy base and carrier-based aircraft ...)
Carriers don't 'beat off attacks,' they support attacks. A carrier must indeed devote a portion of it's aircraft to CAP... but not all of them, and not all the time. Mostly, a few of their aircraft are scouting, a few are patrolling, a few are covering some other asset in the area (like bombers being ferried or proceeding to an attack) and most are getting patched, painted and pampered until it's time for them to fly. The carriers escorts 'beat off attacks.'

A sad fact that very few civilians ever really understand is this: wars only happen on alternate Thursdays, weather permitting, and until the ammo runs out. Then you are suddenly bored shitless for days on end until something else completely horrendous happens and makes you wish that you were never born... this generally lasts almost as long as it takes you to wet your pants and then it too is over and you oil your weapon, eat something and wash your clothes (if there is water around that doesn't come out of you) and you wait for it to all happen again at some undisclosed and unforeseen time in the future!

Again, you are neglecting the whole when designing your parts.
Nothing can do every job, much less do every job well.
Pick a job for your ship, make it very good at that job, and let it stick to that job.
Then design another ship to do the next job.


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klagldsf
Post subject: Re: "Red Alert"-class ocean escort leader, USSRPosted: December 17th, 2011, 7:25 am
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Dilandu wrote:
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Frankly, those B-52's will have a fighter escort
Or yeah. In the middle of Atlantic.
It's not so much fighter cover as the fact that aircraft can launch their missiles beyond the range at which a CAP can effectively intercept it (i.e., the range at which they can be detected). So there are two ideas:

1.) shoot down the incoming missiles as they get within range

2.) extend the detection range to shoot down the bombers

Either one means having a very sophisticated detection system so large it'll require a large AWACs-type aircraft at best; AEGIS is an example of a shipboard system designed specifically for this task.


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Rhade
Post subject: Re: "Red Alert"-class ocean escort leader, USSRPosted: December 17th, 2011, 8:40 am
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NATO also have a Keflavík airbase on Iceland and Yanks Thule airbase on Greenland so even if carrier will be "busy" you still have fighter escort from land bases.

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Dilandu
Post subject: Re: "Red Alert"-class ocean escort leader, USSRPosted: December 17th, 2011, 10:35 am
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NATO also have a Keflavík airbase on Iceland and Yanks Thule airbase on Greenland so even if carrier will be "busy" you still have fighter escort from land bases.
And you think that USSR will be so dumb, that don't neutralise or capture this bases, and don't provide at least - temporal sea dominance BEFORE sending convoys over Atlantic?

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Rhade
Post subject: Re: "Red Alert"-class ocean escort leader, USSRPosted: December 17th, 2011, 11:08 am
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Iceland is one of main SOSUS station, do you think that NATO will be so dumb and give it to reds ? And how you want to attack Keflavik ? From air ? You will be intercept first by RNoAF then by RAF and USAF ... also whole Royal Navy and at least one US carrier group will be defending SOSUS hub.

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Carthaginian
Post subject: Re: "Red Alert"-class ocean escort leader, USSRPosted: December 17th, 2011, 1:43 pm
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Dilandu,

Red Storm Rising.
What you are suggesting is what happened in Red Storm Rising.
The Sovs would have pulled off a 'Pearl Harbor'-esque surprise attack against Iceland and simultaneously flooded the G-I-UK gap with nuke boats and high-endurance SSK's. Then the war would have involved NATO forcing a breech rather than the Sovs being forced to do so.
While there was a warplan for it, and while it did make for a jolly good fiction novel (of which I have worn out three copies myself), it was not exactly the most workable plan and it did call for a lot of dumb luck on the part of the Sovs and some pretty plentiful blind ignorance on the part of NATO.


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