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Preliminary thread for a future Falkland Islands AU http://67.205.157.234/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5280 |
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Author: | apdsmith [ May 18th, 2014, 4:11 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Preliminary thread for a future Falkland Islands AU |
Waaaaait a minute - slightly embarrassed to have to ask this, but is this tug's bow to the left or the right? |
Author: | heuhen [ May 18th, 2014, 4:53 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Preliminary thread for a future Falkland Islands AU |
It would'n work like that. first of all it will give problem with sea-capability and unnecessary stability issues... for when you drive with that end you are taking as rear (the high hull) in to the waves, the thrusters effect will start to have problems. due the entire hull will start to try to lift it self out of the water, at the same time as the Azimut thrusters is drying to pull the ship down. the other problem you get with you'r idea is that the hull will work more different than you think. that rear end with all it underwater hull, will very easy move more up and down than normall tug and thus damage that ship it's moving in to. The reason for having the Azimut trhuster aft, is that there are more lift in that section of the hull for the azimut. but also the azimut Thruster is designed to minimize unwanted movement in the hull. something you loos now. I don't see any problem in having the azimut thruster at rear, since all Tugs in the world have it placed there. so in fact you get an much more worse Tug than you believe by that arrangement, you have there. "There is an reason an azimut trhuster and old school propellers are mounted aft (azimuth and old school propulsion is similar with an diferent!), but voith Schneider Propeller (VSP) is a bit different. But then my knowledge on Tugs can be wrong, and if that is correct... then something is wrong. But you shall have for thinking out of the box... but there are things that would'n work as well outside the box... so long it's not designed for that. And Azimuth is not an out of box system. It's good because it's build to be the master of the box...! |
Author: | Oberon_706 [ May 18th, 2014, 5:02 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Preliminary thread for a future Falkland Islands AU |
I'm certainly no expert on the subject of Hydrodynamics, but i have seen them in action and believe they work as advertised. Please see the link below if you want any further information on the design family. http://www.ral.ca/designs/tugboats/z-tech_class.html Cheers |
Author: | heuhen [ May 18th, 2014, 5:37 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Preliminary thread for a future Falkland Islands AU |
interesting. what they have done basically is flipping the hull. with an extensive hull modification. (it's like they saw he voith-Schneider... and just got an idea). after I also understand from the article, these are not a pure open water Tugs. they work from the dock, and out to the outer coast line. and if they want to go further out they have to go in an tractor mode. It's not ideal for Falklands where you want an open sea tug. a tug that can take it... as the z-tech is very new, and only tested on a few tugs, and some of them is just normal tugs, they just have flipped around without the necessary improvement. I will wait until I see one going directly out in the open sea, in full storm without an problem.... first then I will say that system is good. for the biggest problem I can see that an office engineer with no real experience out there can see is that, when she go out in the open water... she will handle like when you reversing a small boat. the end where the Azimut is will go in that direction it's pointed. while the rear/bow will move all over the place, and in bad weather an wave crossing the bow.... well to say it this way, you have to do constant course correction. And in Falklands known for it interesting sea.... |
Author: | Oberon_706 [ May 18th, 2014, 11:29 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Preliminary thread for a future Falkland Islands AU |
I totally agree Sir, definitely not ideal for open water operations - but i still believe they'll suit my purposes just fine, for two reasons; 1. Many examples of this type of tug have made trans-oceanic delivery voyages in 'tractor mode' with little or no sea keeping difficulties experienced (includes all 10 of the Panama Canal Authority's Z-tech 6000 series tugs (Built in Hong Kong - trans-pacific delivery voyage to Panama) 2. In the context of my AU, the MkIII will be one of three (3) tug classes operated by the FDS and will be the primary Ship-Assist/Ship Docking tug operating in relatively sheltered/confined areas of the islands with little or no need for open water operation except for transit voyages. Thank you for your thoughts 'heuhen', I sincerely look forward to your continuing contributions as my AU develops. Cheers |
Author: | acelanceloet [ May 21st, 2014, 3:00 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Preliminary thread for a future Falkland Islands AU |
well, a few comments on your darings. first of all, photobucket has resized your image. second, hood has drawn an entirely new rendition of the daring with updated parts and style from the australian ones you used as base. http://shipbucket.com/images.php?dir=Re ... 201952.png the guns, director, radar are all parts that at least should be updated. third, I find it unlikely they would be exactly the same, australia being in a different ocean (colour) then the falklands, and with of course some different ideas about how it should work (parts). for example, the 2 WM eggs and the LW-02 radar on the australian darings are a bit unlikely on an ship that operates at least in the beginning still as british ship, IMO. the australian ones were also a bit different from the british ones as build (LIMBO, secondary guns, for example) the last one, looking a bit like an daring FRAM, is something which looks a bit over the top, and most likely is. I'll see what you do with the first 2 before I am commenting on that one, though. the background story, while not entirely possible, is plausible though IMO, and something can be done with the ships as you are planning. |
Author: | JSB [ May 21st, 2014, 3:26 pm ] | ||
Post subject: | Re: Preliminary thread for a future Falkland Islands AU | ||
Can you add some basic ideas to your backstory, How different are your Falkland Islands in your AU ? Just asking as the real FI have a population of 2,932 in 2012 so running 3 ships with Crew: 250 + up to 30 overload/embarked forces might be a bit hard ! (unless they are all Uk manned apart from a token Falkland Islands presence ) but you then get into issues about the cost etc If you want a Falkland Islands in your AU with the forces to defend itself then you need a richer bigger Falkland's ! (say find loads of oil in 60/70s ! then you can pay for it all and man it from UK etc). But I think this would create LOTS of butterflies (and stop a 82 war, as Argentina would have no illusions that UK would walk away from the Falkland's (I also don't think they would be separate from the RN just the FI would pay a large chunk of the MOD budget and get a few ships stationed down south on rotation/ along with maybe a RM commando ? If you just want to defend the island an airport with a small squadron of anti shipping/fighter aircraft is probably cheaper then 3 destroyers ie Mount Pleasant )
Salvation came in the form of a need to provide a credible and permanent naval deterrent force in the South Atlantic as a counter to Argentina’s territorial ambitions for the Falkland Islands, South Sandwich Islands and South Georgia, all British Overseas protectorates. In the summer of 1957
I didn't think Argentina started to realy claim them till later (ie when the RN stoped being a superpower size fleet ), Wiki says
The present dispute began shortly after the 1960 passage of United Nations General Assembly Resolution 1514 on decolonization, when Argentina reasserted its sovereignty claims to the UN special committee for non-self-governing territories
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