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Natsuzuki Postwar Modernisation - WIP
http://67.205.157.234/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8651		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Yasutomi [ August 7th, 2018, 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Natsuzuki Postwar Modernisation - WIP
Greetings, Bucketeers...it's been too long!

Inspired by 1143M's Tai Yuan (and of course BB1987's wonderful rendition of the Akizuki Class), I found myself wondering how one of the survivors might have been modernised with western equipment. My scenario sees the former Natsuzuki acquired by a small state in the Indonesian archipelago and outfitted with a variety of Swedish, Dutch and American weaponry and radars in what I hope might resemble a plausible fashion.

Unfortunately, my knowledge of the destroyers and equipment of this period isn't great, so I badly need some advice! I've almost certainly left out some key apparatus, for example a director for the 40mm Bofors...and I'm also concerned about the general arrangement and weight margins. Comments and suggestions will be gratefully received!

Y.

[ img ]
Author:  acelanceloet [ August 7th, 2018, 10:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Natsuzuki Postwar Modernisation - WIP
Seems you have used the Dutch Holland class as a base. Keep in mind though, that the Holland class had an watered down fire control system, due to the earlier designs having topweight problems as the design process progressed. This means the Holland class has 2 directors for 2 120mm turrets and 1 40mm turret. The directors they used were of a type originally meant to be the secondary director.
The fit found on both the earlier concepts and the later Friesland class, used one main fire control director on top of the pilothouse and 4 secondary directors, controlling 2 120mm turrets and 6 40mm. I suspect that is an better fit for your weapons.

the big issue though, is the fact that you lack hull height to fit these guns, especially aft. There should be a drawing of the deck penetration of these guns on the shipbucket wiki.
Author:  Yasutomi [ August 8th, 2018, 7:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Natsuzuki Postwar Modernisation - WIP
acelanceloet wrote: *August 7th, 2018, 10:32 pm
Seems you have used the Dutch Holland class as a base. Keep in mind though, that the Holland class had an watered down fire control system, due to the earlier designs having topweight problems as the design process progressed. This means the Holland class has 2 directors for 2 120mm turrets and 1 40mm turret. The directors they used were of a type originally meant to be the secondary director.
I did indeed use the Hollands as a model...and did wonder about the light director fit. Was the RT C1 intended as the primary director?
Quote:
The fit found on both the earlier concepts and the later Friesland class, used one main fire control director on top of the pilothouse and 4 secondary directors, controlling 2 120mm turrets and 6 40mm. I suspect that is an better fit for your weapons.
Okay, thanks...I'll have another look.
Quote:
the big issue though, is the fact that you lack hull height to fit these guns, especially aft. There should be a drawing of the deck penetration of these guns on the shipbucket wiki.
I suspected as much about the aft mount, but then this drawing seemed to show the 120mm mounted in a similarly restricted position...so I was left unsure. Wouldn't the fore mount work at least?

If not, I may need to opt for a different turret...the US Mark 39 was my fallback.

Many thanks for the help, Ace...I'll fiddle around and have another go.
Author:  acelanceloet [ August 8th, 2018, 10:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Natsuzuki Postwar Modernisation - WIP
yes, the C1 was the primary fire control director for both the cruisers and the Friesland class.
That drawing is the least possible and likely of all friesland configurations, and I have never seen any proof of it existing in real life...... I could be wrong, but I doubt that concept is real. The forward one might work, check it with the belowdeck parts.
Author:  Yasutomi [ August 8th, 2018, 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Natsuzuki Postwar Modernisation - WIP
[ img ]

I've removed the 3' guns, moved the aft 120mm a deck higher and added 2 C1s. It might fit, but it looks a little topheavy to me...and I'm not sure about the internal arrangements.

In case I can't make it work, I've been considering an alternative approach:



There's space for at least one more director, but I'm wondering if I shouldn't be using the Mark 56...
Author:  erik_t [ August 8th, 2018, 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Natsuzuki Postwar Modernisation - WIP
The Mark 56 was considered to be the best AA director of its time, and was only limited in that it had no rangefinger and rangekeeper for surface fire control.

It's hard to imagine a destroyer planning on taking two surface targets under fire simultaneously.
Author:  acelanceloet [ August 8th, 2018, 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Natsuzuki Postwar Modernisation - WIP
2 C1's seems overkill to me as well. I would instead try to optimise the secondary director arrangements, the Friesland had 2 on the aft superstructure and 2 on the bridge wings for example. Note that the C1 was not an standalone system, it was coupled to an optical sight in front of it. Similarly, the secondary directors had optical sights nearby as well, but of the unprotected kind. (for example on the open bridge on top of the Friesland's pilothouse) I plan to put an full explanation of these systems on the sb wiki after I return from holidays in 10 days or so.
Author:  Yasutomi [ August 14th, 2018, 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Natsuzuki Postwar Modernisation - WIP
I've come to the conclusion that I just don't know enough about Dutch equipment to make a credible design without a lot more research, so I think I'll put that version on hold for now and revisit it later. In the meantime, I've been working on the version armed with American equipment, taking into account the advice regarding directors:

[ img ]

I've credited Novice as I've lifted the second launch and the tops of the masts from his work (I'm still finding my way with contemporary electronics fits and needed a bit of help).

Does that look plausible? And are there any glaring mistakes or omissions?

Many thanks again for all your help!
Author:  Novice [ August 14th, 2018, 8:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Natsuzuki Postwar Modernisation - WIP
A nice effort, and I think it's credible, apart from the third 3"/50 mounting just abaft the torpedo tubes, and the second Mk.56 director in front of the tubes. IMHO they will overload the ship (not by much, but none the less)
You also don't need to credit me for the parts, as they are free to use here by the community, and I certainly don't need to be credited for the launch, as I'm not the original artist.
Author:  Yasutomi [ August 21st, 2018, 7:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Natsuzuki Postwar Modernisation - WIP
Thanks Novice...I've revised the design as you suggested. I was a bit worried with the weight distribution- the deleted topweight was all from the back half of the vessel- so I've replaced the ASW mortar with a hedgehog. Ideally, this should probably be a trainable mount (Mark 15?) but I could only find a drawing of the Mark 11.

[ img ]

Final armament is:

2x 5"/54 Mark 39 single mounts
4x 3"/50 Mark 27 twin mounts
1x 21" Mark 15 quintuple torpedo tubes
1x Mark 11 Hedgehog ASW mortar
4x K-gun
2x depth charge racks

One final question...does the mast look structurally sound? I must have gone through half a dozen versions trying to find something that is sturdy, can carry all the radars (and clear the director) without being unnecessarily tall!
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