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heuhen
Post subject: Re: Norway coastal defence shipPosted: October 25th, 2011, 10:01 pm
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I did!


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heuhen
Post subject: Re: Norway coastal defence shipPosted: October 26th, 2011, 10:41 am
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Now I start to get the lines I want, what I have gone for in the armament is:

2 * twin 240mm (upgraded and redesigned version of the 240mm cannon as Bjorgvin class uses!) Range are much greater, loding time is shorter.

2 * twin 152mm cannon
4 * 76mm. Act as DP canon where AA is the most important part of its task. The main magazine to the 76 mm is placed on deck in the superstructure, the second magazine is stored under the deck and any ammunition must be carried by hand between the reservoirs. something that is not it ideal. (main magazine: 3500. second magazine: 2500.)
5 * 20mm AA
8 +2 * 12.7 mm AA

She is not equipped with a under water torpedo which Bjorgvin class have, as the space goes to the extra space the machine will need because she makes 3 to 4 knots more than Bjorgvin.

Note: I went for 2 * 152 mm guns, and gave her 4 * 76mm to improve the ship's AA capacity. For after reading books about the Norwegian navy. And as far as I understand it was not just idiots that run the Navy, they were aware of the need to have a better AA batteris than they had before. one can see it on the Sleipner class (small destroyer / torpedo boat) that was equipped with 100 cm DP and two types of AA batteries.

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Carthaginian
Post subject: Re: Norway coastal defence shipPosted: October 26th, 2011, 11:10 am
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Now THIS is a Coast Defense Ship with some intimidation factor!
What does the Springsharp look like?


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heuhen
Post subject: Re: Norway coastal defence shipPosted: October 26th, 2011, 11:19 am
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Bergen/Christiania, Norway coastal defence ship laid down 1940

Displacement:
6 136 t light; 6 646 t standard; 6 964 t normal; 7 218 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(319,36 ft / 311,68 ft) x 55,77 ft x (18,04 / 18,63 ft)
(97,34 m / 95,00 m) x 17,00 m x (5,50 / 5,68 m)

Armament:
4 - 9,45" / 240 mm 51,0 cal guns - 448,55lbs / 203,46kg shells, 130 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1940 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 6,00" / 152 mm 49,0 cal guns - 113,76lbs / 51,60kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1940 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides amidships
4 - 2,99" / 76,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 13,51lbs / 6,13kg shells, 6 000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1940 Model
4 x Single mounts on sides amidships
10 - 0,79" / 20,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 0,25lbs / 0,11kg shells, 6 000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1940 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, evenly spread
4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
4 - 0,50" / 12,7 mm 45,0 cal guns - 0,06lbs / 0,03kg shells, 10 000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1940 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 2 306 lbs / 1 046 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10,0" / 254 mm 202,59 ft / 61,75 m 8,96 ft / 2,73 m
Ends: 7,00" / 178 mm 109,07 ft / 33,24 m 8,96 ft / 2,73 m
Upper: 7,00" / 178 mm 202,59 ft / 61,75 m 8,00 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
10,0" / 254 mm 202,59 ft / 61,75 m 17,96 ft / 5,47 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7,00" / 178 mm 7,00" / 178 mm 6,00" / 152 mm
2nd: 6,00" / 152 mm 6,00" / 152 mm 6,00" / 152 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 8,00" / 203 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7 765 shp / 5 793 Kw = 16,40 kts
Range 3 000nm at 14,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 573 tons

Complement:
380 - 495

Cost:
£2,904 million / $11,616 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 605 tons, 8,7 %
Armour: 3 527 tons, 50,7 %
- Belts: 1 603 tons, 23,0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1 346 tons, 19,3 %
- Armament: 515 tons, 7,4 %
- Conning Tower: 63 tons, 0,9 %
Machinery: 208 tons, 3,0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 796 tons, 25,8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 827 tons, 11,9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
15 340 lbs / 6 958 Kg = 36,4 x 9,4 " / 240 mm shells or 4,8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,16
Metacentric height 2,8 ft / 0,8 m
Roll period: 14,1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 84 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,66
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,36

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and small transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,777 / 0,780
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,59 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19,17 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20,00 %, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
- Forward deck: 30,00 %, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Aft deck: 35,00 %, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Quarter deck: 15,00 %, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
- Average freeboard: 13,95 ft / 4,25 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 70,5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 103,6 %
Waterplane Area: 15 309 Square feet or 1 422 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 101 lbs/sq ft or 492 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,93
- Longitudinal: 2,14
- Overall: 1,01
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily


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Carthaginian
Post subject: Re: Norway coastal defence shipPosted: October 26th, 2011, 12:36 pm
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The design looks plausible enough that it should have been built, IMO.

The only POSSIBLE complaints I can have about her are that
1.) there is no Misc. Weight set aside for things like directors, radar, etc- most SS enthusiasts call this a must. I generally try to leave a few percent set aside myself (5%-10%, depending on the ship type).
2.) a 9' high belt might allow the bottom of the belt to become exposed from hull/wave interaction, meaning that the ship could be holed below the belt... of course, that will be minimized by low speed and coastal environment.


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heuhen
Post subject: Re: Norway coastal defence shipPosted: October 26th, 2011, 12:47 pm
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Quote:
1.) there is no Misc. Weight set aside for things like directors, radar, etc- most SS enthusiasts call this a must. I generally try to leave a few percent set aside myself (5%-10%, depending on the ship type).
I'll fix that!
Quote:
2.) a 9' high belt might allow the bottom of the belt to become exposed from hull/wave interaction, meaning that the ship could be holed below the belt... of course, that will be minimized by low speed and coastal environment.
she is for coastal opperation, but how large should be belt, she does not need a very large belt, but nice to have!


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Thiel
Post subject: Re: Norway coastal defence shipPosted: October 26th, 2011, 1:23 pm
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A minor quibble, based on your drawing your armament section should look like this:
Armament:
      4 - 9,45" / 240 mm 51,0 cal guns - 448,55lbs / 203,46kg shells, 130 per gun
	  Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1950 Model
	  2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
      4 - 6,00" / 152 mm 49,0 cal guns - 113,76lbs / 51,60kg shells, 150 per gun
	  Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1940 Model
	  2 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
		2 raised mounts
      4 - 2,99" / 75,9 mm 45,0 cal guns - 13,48lbs / 6,11kg shells, 6.000 per gun
	  Dual purpose guns in deck mounts, 1950 Model
	  2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
	  2 x Single mounts on centreline, aft deck forward
      10 - 0,79" / 20,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 0,25lbs / 0,11kg shells, 6.000 per gun
	  Machine guns in deck mounts, 1940 Model
	  4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
		4 raised mounts
	  1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck centre
		1 double raised mount
      6 - 0,50" / 12,7 mm 45,0 cal guns - 0,06lbs / 0,03kg shells, 6.000 per gun
	  Machine guns in deck mounts, 1940 Model
	  6 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
		4 double raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 2.306 lbs / 1.046 kg
In SpringSharp AA guns are incapable of targeting surface targets, so since the ones you've drawn clearly are I've taken the liberty of making them DP guns.
You also have to ad armour to your remaining guns.

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That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error

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heuhen
Post subject: Re: Norway coastal defence shipPosted: October 26th, 2011, 4:22 pm
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thx! thiel


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heuhen
Post subject: Re: Norway coastal defence shipPosted: October 26th, 2011, 6:33 pm
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Bergen/Christiania, Norway coastal defence ship laid down 1940

Displacement:
6 147 t light; 6 646 t standard; 6 964 t normal; 7 218 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(319,36 ft / 311,68 ft) x 55,77 ft x (18,04 / 18,63 ft)
(97,34 m / 95,00 m) x 17,00 m x (5,50 / 5,68 m)

Armament:
4 - 9,45" / 240 mm 51,0 cal guns - 448,55lbs / 203,46kg shells, 130 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1940 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 6,00" / 152 mm 49,0 cal guns - 113,76lbs / 51,60kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1940 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
4 - 2,99" / 76,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 13,51lbs / 6,13kg shells, 6 000 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts, 1940 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft
10 - 0,79" / 20,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 0,25lbs / 0,11kg shells, 6 000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1940 Model
4 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
1 x Twin mount on centreline, aft deck centre
1 double raised mount
10 - 0,50" / 12,7 mm 45,0 cal guns - 0,06lbs / 0,03kg shells, 10 000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1940 Model
6 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 2 306 lbs / 1 046 kg


Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10,0" / 254 mm 202,59 ft / 61,75 m 8,96 ft / 2,73 m
Ends: 7,00" / 178 mm 109,07 ft / 33,24 m 8,96 ft / 2,73 m
Upper: 7,00" / 178 mm 202,59 ft / 61,75 m 8,00 ft / 2,44 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
10,0" / 254 mm 202,59 ft / 61,75 m 17,96 ft / 5,47 m

- Hull Bulges:
0,00" / 0 mm 0,00 ft / 0,00 m 0,00 ft / 0,00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7,00" / 178 mm 7,00" / 178 mm 6,00" / 152 mm
2nd: 6,00" / 152 mm 6,00" / 152 mm 6,00" / 152 mm
3rd: 3,00" / 76 mm 3,00" / 76 mm -
4th: 1,00" / 25 mm 1,00" / 25 mm -
5th: 1,00" / 25 mm 1,00" / 25 mm -


- Conning towers: Forward 8,00" / 203 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7 765 shp / 5 793 Kw = 16,40 kts
Range 3 000nm at 14,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 573 tons

Complement:
380 - 495

Cost:
£2,907 million / $11,627 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 578 tons, 8,3 %
Armour: 3 959 tons, 56,8 %
- Belts: 1 610 tons, 23,1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1 346 tons, 19,3 %
- Armament: 940 tons, 13,5 %
- Conning Tower: 63 tons, 0,9 %
Machinery: 208 tons, 3,0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 903 tons, 13,0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 817 tons, 11,7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 7,2 %
- Hull below water: 100 tons
- Hull void weights: 100 tons
- Hull above water: 100 tons
- On freeboard deck: 100 tons
- Above deck: 100 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7 482 lbs / 3 394 Kg = 17,7 x 9,4 " / 240 mm shells or 3,3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,07
Metacentric height 2,4 ft / 0,7 m
Roll period: 15,2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 82 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,71
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,33

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and small transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,777 / 0,780
Length to Beam Ratio: 5,59 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 19,17 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20,00 %, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
- Forward deck: 30,00 %, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Aft deck: 35,00 %, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m
- Quarter deck: 15,00 %, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
- Average freeboard: 13,95 ft / 4,25 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 75,1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 103,6 %
Waterplane Area: 15 309 Square feet or 1 422 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 57 lbs/sq ft or 278 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,50
- Longitudinal: 1,12
- Overall: 0,54
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily


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Thiel
Post subject: Re: Norway coastal defence shipPosted: October 26th, 2011, 7:04 pm
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Well, now that we've got the SS report in order it's time to look at the design itself.
First of with an overall strength of only 0,54 I'll say the ship is badly overloaded. The Coastal Defence ships were historically ver strong if somewhat uncomfortable ships.
For what is essentially a pre-war ship the amount of light AA is far too high.
I'd remove at least half of them, if not more. I'd also settle on one of the two types.
In order to bring down the load you may also have to sacrifice half the 76mm guns or replace them with something lighter like the 40mm Bofors.
It's by no means an optimal solution but then neither were this type of ships.

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“Close” only counts with horseshoes, hand grenades, and tactical nuclear weapons.
That which does not kill me has made a grave tactical error

Worklist

Source Materiel is always welcome.


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