Cruisers for South America

Alright, you've convinced me

. I'll have a go with a ship from Denton.

Here's the SS I'm working on. Thoughts?

I'm not sure for the era, but would single 5" turrets be more prevalent than twins?
Heavy Cruiser SA, Denton Heavy Cruiser laid down 1934

Displacement:
9,391 t light; 9,783 t standard; 10,633 t normal; 11,312 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
599.27 ft / 594.00 ft x 61.00 ft x 20.50 ft (normal load)
182.66 m / 181.05 m x 18.59 m x 6.25 m

Armament:
6 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (3x2 guns), 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1934 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (2x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1934 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (2x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1934 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all forward
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1934 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1934 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 2,044 lbs / 927 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 240.00 ft / 73.15 m 11.00 ft / 3.35 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 250.00 ft / 76.20 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
104.00 ft / 31.70 m Unarmoured ends
Main Belt covers 62 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
2nd: 5.00" / 127 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 5.00" / 127 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
4th: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
5th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 6.00" / 152 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 86,048 shp / 64,192 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 19.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,529 tons

Complement:
523 - 680

Cost:
£4.369 million / $17.475 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 256 tons, 2.4 %
Armour: 2,127 tons, 20.0 %
- Belts: 822 tons, 7.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 545 tons, 5.1 %
- Armour Deck: 697 tons, 6.6 %
- Conning Tower: 63 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 2,475 tons, 23.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,533 tons, 42.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,242 tons, 11.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
14,738 lbs / 6,685 Kg = 57.6 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 3.0 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 14.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 47 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.87

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.501
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.74 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.87 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarterdeck (30 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m (20.00 ft / 6.10 m before break)
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 20.29 ft / 6.18 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 169.9 %
Waterplane Area: 25,129 Square feet or 2,335 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 115 lbs/sq ft or 563 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.38
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
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Salide - Denton - The Interrealms

I am not very active on the forums anymore, but work is still being done on my AUs. Visit the Salidan Altiverse Page on the SB Wiki for more information. All current work is being done on Google Docs.
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That looks like a very good start ezgo394, the British influence in the guns, it will be interesting to see what you do with the superstructure.

Thanks Krakatoa! Actually, the guns were just placeholders (the 8" was taken from the RN parts sheet and the 5.25 look alike is from my H45 ship, which actually used the turret of the QF 5.25 inch, but instead had 5" guns) and will be redrawn into a more 'Denton-esque' style, (whatever that means).
For the superstructure, I'm going to keep it similar to the New Orleans class (the main inspiration of the ship).
-----

Now for an update. I've redrawn the guns into a Denton-esque style (again, whatever that means. I think it means a cross of US and UK influence...). I've also toyed with the superstructure a little bit and placed the hangar and catapult for a float plane. I'm planning to go with the as is configuration, with the boats stored on top of the hangar and towards the rear, opening up the amidships area. Torpedoes will likely go in between the funnel and floatplane, on either side of the hull.
One of my main concerns is the armor belt. Since the main belt can't reach the guns (aside from the B and C turret), should it be primarily focused on protecting the machinery?
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I wish I had more done, but I'm having to cross reference with several other ships, while keeping most of it different than the ships I'm looking at.

That is coming along well ezgo394, good balanced looking ship.

While I drew the cruiser below for the RN, any of the smaller South American countries that wanted a prestige unit that also had practical usefulness could do worse than order a 'G'.

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Krakatoa wrote:

In 1936 with its neighbours increasing their navies Venezuela looked to at least maintain parity. The plan was to purchase a destroyer leader with another four destroyers to make up the Venezuelan "Battle Group".

The design chosen for the destroyer leader was of US origin. It was to be a multi-purpose cruiser type vessel. The vessel ended up with dual purpose guns for both air and sea combat. Torpedoes to menace bigger targets with. Mine rails could be fitted.

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This ship was to be followed by four Gleaves class destroyers

That is a very interesting ship, although im curious were did you get the idea because it looks similar to a cruiser that was proposed for the Venezuelan navy in the 50's.

Regards

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kike-92

Thanks Kike92,

My idea was to have a small Dido/Atlanta type AA cruiser without the topweight problems. My thought was to lower the turrets as much as possible and the above is what I ended up with.

Here's an update on the Denton cruiser. It's coming along slow, but I'm getting the hang of it. I'm still trying to figure out what to do for the structure under and behind/above the bridge, but that'll come to me eventually.

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Re the bridge conundrum. I'd probably take that second deck down a level up-to about two-thirds of the way along the actual bridge structure and blend the remaining bit into a single structure.

I'll upload a quick image of what I mean, watch this space.

ETA. Image!

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~Mark.

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AU Projects: | Banbha et al. | New England: The Divided States
Blood and Fire

Hey Blackbuck, I like that idea a lot! Thanks!

Hi all,

Well, this has been a while coming, but I'm a little stumped and I'd appreciate some help.

Firstly, this is in spec a reasonably close cousin to the Leipzig class, as indicated by the typically NSWE-ish layout of the main battery. However, in building it slightly heavier for the upgrade, I found I had sufficient weight allowances and room in the barbette (at least, if SS is accurate) to go for quads rather than triples in the very first incarnation, as below:

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SchnellKreuzer 1930, New Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach Light Cruiser laid down 1930

Displacement:
8,749 t light; 9,074 t standard; 9,916 t normal; 10,590 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
599.37 ft / 574.15 ft x 59.06 ft x 21.33 ft (normal load)
182.69 m / 175.00 m x 18.00 m x 6.50 m

Armament:
12 - 5.87" / 149 mm guns (3x4 guns), 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 1930 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
10 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1925 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 1.64lbs / 0.74kg shells, 1930 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,444 lbs / 655 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
12 - 21.0" / 533 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.94" / 100 mm 315.78 ft / 96.25 m 9.22 ft / 2.81 m
Ends: 0.79" / 20 mm 258.33 ft / 78.74 m 9.22 ft / 2.81 m
Main Belt covers 85 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.94" / 100 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 1.57" / 40 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -

- Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 1.97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 82,470 shp / 61,522 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 19.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,515 tons

Complement:
496 - 645

Cost:
£3.376 million / $13.504 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 180 tons, 1.8 %
Armour: 1,562 tons, 15.8 %
- Belts: 560 tons, 5.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 310 tons, 3.1 %
- Armour Deck: 672 tons, 6.8 %
- Conning Tower: 20 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 2,499 tons, 25.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,358 tons, 44.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,167 tons, 11.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 1.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
13,464 lbs / 6,107 Kg = 133.1 x 5.9 " / 149 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.9 m
Roll period: 14.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 63 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.27

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.480
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.72 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.47 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 32.50 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 34.45 ft / 10.50 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Mid (60 %): 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Stern: 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Average freeboard: 22.64 ft / 6.90 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152.9 %
Waterplane Area: 23,064 Square feet or 2,143 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 122 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 108 lbs/sq ft or 529 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 2.24
- Overall: 1.06
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

I've also postulated a '38 version as the treaties start to become a little more forgiving - this is a quite an austere upgrade, replace the 149.1mm main battery and the 88mm secondaries, as below:

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SchnellKreuzer 1938, New Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach Light Cruiser laid down 1930 (Engine 1938)

Displacement:
8,774 t light; 9,133 t standard; 9,916 t normal; 10,543 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
599.37 ft / 574.15 ft x 59.06 ft x 21.33 ft (normal load)
182.69 m / 175.00 m x 18.00 m x 6.50 m

Armament:
6 - 7.99" / 203 mm guns (3x2 guns), 268.96lbs / 122.00kg shells, 1934 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
10 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1930 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1930 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,853 lbs / 840 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
12 - 21.0" / 533 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.94" / 100 mm 315.78 ft / 96.25 m 9.22 ft / 2.81 m
Ends: 0.79" / 20 mm 258.33 ft / 78.74 m 9.22 ft / 2.81 m
Main Belt covers 85 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.94" / 100 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 1.57" / 40 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -

- Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 1.97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 91,270 shp / 68,088 Kw = 33.86 kts
Range 4,000nm at 19.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,410 tons

Complement:
496 - 645

Cost:
£3.519 million / $14.077 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 220 tons, 2.2 %
Armour: 1,585 tons, 16.0 %
- Belts: 560 tons, 5.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 333 tons, 3.4 %
- Armour Deck: 672 tons, 6.8 %
- Conning Tower: 20 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 2,499 tons, 25.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,310 tons, 43.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,142 tons, 11.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 160 tons, 1.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
12,824 lbs / 5,817 Kg = 50.2 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 1.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 15.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 59 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.63
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.18

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.480
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.72 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.47 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 32.50 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 34.45 ft / 10.50 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Mid (60 %): 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Stern: 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Average freeboard: 22.64 ft / 6.90 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 101.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152.9 %
Waterplane Area: 23,064 Square feet or 2,143 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 107 lbs/sq ft or 524 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.92
- Longitudinal: 2.18
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Now for the question: I'm presuming that there's going to be a later refit, however, I'm unsure how major it should be. At a bare minimum I'm thinking that the 88s would be replaced with a few 105mm twins (the SK C/33, I would think) - but I suspect that this will, in turn, require razing the superstructure and starting from scratch, probably taking the opportunity to remove the torpedo tubes and add radar to the foremast, rebuilding the bridge so that it's enclosed as NSWE's Bauamt finally takes pity on the watch officers, probably taking the cat off the stern and replacing it with the one off CA'41. The question is twofold - firstly, is it worth it over the austere upgrade and second, is there anything else that would sensibly be done at the same time?

Regards,
Adam

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NSWE: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5695

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