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Thiel
Post subject: Re: CorvettePosted: June 17th, 2016, 1:23 am
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Can SM2 actually do that?

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r3mu511
Post subject: Re: CorvettePosted: June 17th, 2016, 8:35 am
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heuhen wrote:
The range isn't the most important thing for the missiles fired from the corvette, but by Norwegian doctrine, it is expected that Skjold class would work as an extended sensor and weapon guidance platform for the Frigates, trough Link 11 and link 16 communication system (Network warfare). (basicly the Skjold class detect and paint the target, for then sending firing order to the Frigates Weapon systems...) I expect the corvette would do the same, but with a stronger sensor platform than what Skjold class have and a tad stronger all around weapon systems... but with commons systems.
in that case, maybe the corvette should just have essm, a good air search set, and CEC to do the engage on remote operation you describe...
Thiel wrote:
Can SM2 actually do that?
if by "that" you mean what @heuhen describes, it's a function of CEC (cooperative engagement capability) called 'engage on remote' where a ship detects and tracks a target, xmits the track data to another ship (w/c is the shooting ship) via datalinks (ie. CEC-DDS), and the shooting ship will launch and perform midcourse guidance for the SM using the remote track data it receives over the datalinks, then perform terminal illumination to achieve intercept (w/ the assumption that after the midcourse phase the target has now moved into the rf horizon of the shooting ship for the terminal guidance phase)...

there's also another capability called 'forward pass' where a ship launches an SM, performs midcourse to bring it in the vicinity of another ship, and that 2nd ship then takes over to perform terminal homing illumination to intercept a target it was tracking (but w/c was not w/in the rf horizon of the 1st, ie. shooter, ship - meaning the shooting ship did not actually detect/track the target)...

if the ships do not have CEC and instead have to rely on link-11/-16 only, then this would be a simpler case of the detecting ship passing it's track data via link-11/-16 to the shooting ship, the shooting ship then waits for the target to get w/in it's own rf horizon, and then it launches and prosecutes the attack as normal...

it is this "waiting to get target w/in rf horizon" w/c is the diff b/w CEC and regular track sharing via link-11/-16... w/ CEC engage-on-remote it can launch and perform midcourse guidance w/o the need for the target to be w/in the shooter's rf horizon, but the target must enter this horizon by the time terminal guidance commences... w/ CEC forward-pass the target never needs to be w/in the rf horizon of the shooter for midcourse and terminal phase...

(as an aside, if you move up from SM-2 to SM-6 w/ it's active seeker added capability, then even terminal phase guidance no longer needs to be w/in the rf horizon of the shooter for engage-on-remote)


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citizen lambda
Post subject: Re: CorvettePosted: June 17th, 2016, 3:52 pm
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Interesting design indeed, the new versions start looking really good.
Is there, or has there ever been a concrete requirement in Norway for such a ship?
r3mu511 wrote:
heuhen wrote:
The range isn't the most important thing for the missiles fired from the corvette, but by Norwegian doctrine, it is expected that Skjold class would work as an extended sensor and weapon guidance platform for the Frigates, trough Link 11 and link 16 communication system (Network warfare). (basicly the Skjold class detect and paint the target, for then sending firing order to the Frigates Weapon systems...) I expect the corvette would do the same, but with a stronger sensor platform than what Skjold class have and a tad stronger all around weapon systems... but with commons systems.
in that case, maybe the corvette should just have essm, a good air search set, and CEC to do the engage on remote operation you describe...
That's right, in that configuration, the SM-2ER should be on the frigates, not the corvettes. Maybe more STIRs, though?
r3mu511 wrote:
if the ships do not have CEC and instead have to rely on link-11/-16 only, then this would be a simpler case of the detecting ship passing it's track data via link-11/-16 to the shooting ship, the shooting ship then waits for the target to get w/in it's own rf horizon, and then it launches and prosecutes the attack as normal...

it is this "waiting to get target w/in rf horizon" w/c is the diff b/w CEC and regular track sharing via link-11/-16... w/ CEC engage-on-remote it can launch and perform midcourse guidance w/o the need for the target to be w/in the shooter's rf horizon, but the target must enter this horizon by the time terminal guidance commences... w/ CEC forward-pass the target never needs to be w/in the rf horizon of the shooter for midcourse and terminal phase...
[/quote]Does this mean that the engagement described by Heuhen is not feasible with only link-11/-16? And that what you call "forward-pass" requires CEC-specific infrastructure? Or are both just two different engagement procedures using the same material?

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r3mu511
Post subject: Re: CorvettePosted: June 17th, 2016, 4:11 pm
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^both engage-on-remote and forward-pass require CEC...

what @heuhen described sounds like engage-on-remote if the frigate fires when the target is not w/in the rf horizon of the frigate (meaning the frigate doesn't detect the target w/ it's spy-1f)...

otoh, if the target moves w/in the rf horizon of the frigate prior to it firing (hence the frigate detects/tracks the target w/ it's spy-1f), then it does not need CEC engage-on-remote...

now if by the phrase "the Skjold class detect and paint the target" @heuhen meant that the Skjold is the one doing the terminal illumination for the SM, then this is forward-pass and requires CEC...

so iow, to answer whether CEC is needed or not, @heuhen needs to state whether the target was w/in the frigate's rf horizon at the time it fired, and whether it's the frigate or the Skjold w/c performs terminal illumination for the SM...


Last edited by r3mu511 on June 17th, 2016, 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Colosseum
Post subject: Re: CorvettePosted: June 17th, 2016, 4:24 pm
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So many abbreviations. I can't keep up. What does "b/w", "w/c", "w/" mean?

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r3mu511
Post subject: Re: CorvettePosted: June 17th, 2016, 4:27 pm
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b/w = between
w/c = which
w/ = with
w/in = within
iow = in other words
otoh = on the other hand


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Karle94
Post subject: Re: CorvettePosted: June 17th, 2016, 5:21 pm
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I'm from the younger hipster generation and even I dont understand abbreviations, unless they are military terminology.


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heuhen
Post subject: Re: CorvettePosted: June 17th, 2016, 5:42 pm
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r3mu511 wrote:
^both engage-on-remote and forward-pass require CEC...

what @heuhen described sounds like engage-on-remote if the frigate fires when the target is not w/in the rf horizon of the frigate (meaning the frigate doesn't detect the target w/ it's spy-1f)...

otoh, if the target moves w/in the rf horizon of the frigate prior to it firing (hence the frigate detects/tracks the target w/ it's spy-1f), then it does not need CEC engage-on-remote...

now if by the phrase "the Skjold class detect and paint the target" @heuhen meant that the Skjold is the one doing the terminal illumination for the SM, then this is forward-pass and requires CEC...

so iow, to answer whether CEC is needed or not, @heuhen needs to state whether the target was w/in the frigate's rf horizon at the time it fired, and whether it's the frigate or the Skjold w/c performs terminal illumination for the SM...


Skjold detect and paint, Frigates have the missiles ;)



Now for the sensor equipment, what type of "equipment" would fit best... I can use any Nation systems (so long it's inside NATO, easier with contracts), I don't know about the UK systems, due to what type of weapon Norway use, but UK have some nice radars.


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Colosseum
Post subject: Re: CorvettePosted: June 17th, 2016, 6:12 pm
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r3mu511 wrote:
b/w = between
w/c = which
w/ = with
w/in = within
iow = in other words
otoh = on the other hand
[ img ]

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heuhen
Post subject: Re: CorvettePosted: June 17th, 2016, 6:29 pm
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This would be the lightest version, all equipment and weapon on it can be changed, depending on requirement.

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