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What if the HMS Göta Lejon never would have been sold?
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Author:  bezobrazov [ January 29th, 2011, 2:21 am ]
Post subject:  What if the HMS Göta Lejon never would have been sold?
I don't know if this is the right sub-forum for this posting. I guess if it's not, one of the administrators can move it to the proper place. One thing which always have fascinated me, ever since I took an interest in this beautiful ships' class some 30+ years agois: what if the Swedes would have decided to retain the Göta Lejon, instead of selling her to Chile? I begun drawing the GL, about 1982/83, and nver finished it. (In fact I still have the original sketch!) And that made me think, since SB offers such wonderful, intriguing opportunities: How would the venerable cruiser have looked like during one of the most pivotal foreign-policy crises that Sweden suffered; namely the Karlskrona Naval Base incident in Gåsefjärden, in Oct. 1982, when the Soviet SSK(G) S-363 (U-137) under LtCom Pyotr Gushchin delivered what was later punned as a "Whiskey on the rocks" to the Swedes. The international attention and a bungled Soviet rescue attempt almost drew Sweden and Soviet into an armed conflict. Had it not been for the cool, levelheadedness and firmness of the then Swedish Prime Minister Thorbjörn Fälldin, maybe the two countries would have exchanged live fire against eachother, and only fate will know what might have become of that...

Anyway, here's, again the HMS Göta Lejon, sans camouflage, as she might have appeared as fleet flagship for the Commander-in-Chief Coastal Fleet, Vice Admiral Bror Stefenson.

[ img ]

Notice that the RBS15 SSM canisters would not have been an organic part of the ship's armament, but rather carried on an ad hoc basis, thus these have been transferred from one of the FACs and retain the drab color. (which, of course my Paint-program refuses to show on this drawing)

In this scenario, the ship was retained, manned only intermittently, but in Oct. 1982 pressed into service, hastily refitted and used as fleet flagship during the rescue attempt crisis. The ship sailed with the equally hastily refitted HMS Halland, Gästrikland and Hälsingland destroyers and two divisions of FACs to intercept the expected Soviet armada. In Adm. Stefenson's ear rung the Prime Minister's stern warning: "Hold the borders. Be firm and do not back down whatever the circumstances. You have permission to fire live rounds and, if attacked return fire without further notice. God's Speed on your difficult journey, Admiral." (The PM in RL did give orders to hold the borders and permission to use live ammo, the rest of his utterance is fictional...)

After the crisis, the ship left Sweden for one last around-the-world voyage, between March and December 1983. On July 1 1984 the old warrior was decommissioned and sold for scrap three years later, after several failed attempts to preserve it as a museum ship.
Author:  Thiel [ January 29th, 2011, 7:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What if the HMS Göta Lejon never would have been sold?
Very nice, but since you have the space, why not make the helipad a little larger? Landing on a shipborne helipad is hard, landing on a small one is even worse.
Author:  Vossiej [ January 29th, 2011, 8:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What if the HMS Göta Lejon never would have been sold?
For a modernization in the early 1980's I would have added at least a Mk29 launcher with Sea Sparrow's, or something else more fitting like SeaWolfs... Seacat was developed in the 60's and was outdated during your period of time.
Author:  bezobrazov [ January 29th, 2011, 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What if the HMS Göta Lejon never would have been sold?
Interesting points, Gents, but I invite you to think "Swedish austerity measures a la 1960s-70s." That's what it s all about. And, Vossiej - add to that the Swedish neutrality policy of that period. The helipad is simply an adaptation of the one found on the Halland-class, nothing more, nothing less. The Bell Jet Ranger Helicopter is the usual one in service at the time-period, and, yes, operations would be rather awkward, but that's the point of the austerity measure! For the Sea Sparrow: The ship is envisaged to have been further modernized during the late 1960s. That's a time when the Östergötland-class destroyers were equipped with the Sea Cat; and, in this case the Göta Lejon would have been a "hanger-on" to that effort. And, yes, it was virtually obsolescent at the time, yet both the British, Dutch, Swedes, New Zealanders and Australians still used it! Mind you, Quite a few vessels of the British Armada that sallied South to liberate the Falkland Islands still carried it, including the flagship HMS Glamorgan. Besides buying the American Sea Sparrow-system in the 1970s or early 1980s would have presented so many political complexities, so, let's not go there...
As for the Sea Wolf-sytem: very efficient, but also very expensive, ergo, precluded by a money-sarved Swedish navy.

If the Gentlemen would desire, I can sit down and envisage something with the Sea Wolf (I opt to exclude the US-system, being, at the time an unrealistic option.), but fiscally I don't think it'd be feasable at all.
Author:  Psilander [ January 29th, 2011, 10:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What if the HMS Göta Lejon never would have been sold?
Hmmm....this version seems very unrealistic...

The C-in-C of the RSwN had plans for modernizing her along the lines of the dutch cruisers by replaceing the aft turrets with Terrier SAMs. There is drawings of the in swedish wararchives. The plans never left the drawingboard.

She was in need of a great moderisation around 1970, I would have
- Replaced X turret with Terrier SAMs
- Removed Y turret, fittet her with RB 08 SSM and a pad capable of handling Boeing Vertol Seaknight HKP 4.
- Replaced LW-02 (PS-47) with AN/SPS-48 (PS-860), around 1975
- Remodel her CWIS suite with 8-10 57mm mk71 Bofors
- New artillery FC 4-6 arte 62 )egg radome)
- Install MARIL C2 system

If I would have done the moderizzation in 1982 the FC would have been Arte 726 (Ericson 9LV2)
Author:  bezobrazov [ January 29th, 2011, 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What if the HMS Göta Lejon never would have been sold?
Psilander, I've only heard rumours about that, since I've got a few friends who are working within the Swedish defense community. I believe the Terrier option was cancelled because of the sensitive political considerations made by the, then Social Democratic government under Olof Palme. (Remember the Song-My incidents etc!) Now, if you'd be able to dig something further up for me to use, I'd be happy, though, to test that option, if you'd permit me. My alternative, is a very rudementary one, rather reflecting a cash stripped navy's desire to keep one of its capital units running. But, as I said, I'm willing to try your suggestion, for it is an interesting one...
Author:  Gollevainen [ January 29th, 2011, 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What if the HMS Göta Lejon never would have been sold?
Psilander wrote:
There is drawings of the in swedish wararchives. The plans never left the drawingboard.
Is such drawing aviable in online?
Author:  bezobrazov [ January 29th, 2011, 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What if the HMS Göta Lejon never would have been sold?
A good question! I recall having seen something like it when I was doing an internship at Malmo Maritime Museum, some 30 years ago. Unfortunately I never made a copy, and thence it was completely forgotten by me, till now. So, if Psilander might have a way of obtaining that plan, I,d be most grateful!
Author:  Psilander [ January 31st, 2011, 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What if the HMS Göta Lejon never would have been sold?
I dout there will be any such pictures online....
I know I did a poor artists impression a couple of years ago.I might investigat it durther for my RSwN never wheres book project. A friend of mine found the drawing in Krigsarkivet while writing his Defence College essay about sweden's naval power in the early cold war.

http://www.riksarkivet.se/default.aspx? ... refid=1132
Author:  bezobrazov [ January 31st, 2011, 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What if the HMS Göta Lejon never would have been sold?
In lieu of Psilander's knowledgable comments, but without the actual proposal at hand, I've tried to visualize the 1970 modernization. Below is the result. Now, read this before commenting: 1) I've tried several ways and saving formats to get the dazzle-pattern camouflage, without luck! I guess I could resort to just using different grey tones to emulate it, but, of course that leaves something to be desired. 2) I copied your correction of the u/w hull, Psilander. However, on this particular drawing, whatever way I've tried to save it and work with it, it just won't give me the different, necessary, shades of red to properly repaint the u/w hull. If there's anyone out there with a more capable program who might be able to correct that, and give the ship its proper u/w hull color, please do it! If someone, also wants to takeup the camouflage issue, I'm all for it. I don't know if it's my simple program (maybe too old already, or messed-up formats - I don't know! Anyway, I've reached the limit of what I can actually do with this drawing - alas!!!
3) I've decided to utilize a simplified mack-thing with angled exhaust pipes leading the fumes well past the AN/SPG-55 directors and supporting a tall lattice mast with an SPS-52 on top. I also resolved to retain the LW-02, since the Dutch actually did this too! I also lengthened the forward stack some 5 ft to better carry the exhausts away from sensitive electronics.
4) The bridge i elected to modify into a semi-enclosed upper one, with an open bridge wrap-around around the admiral's bridge. This is more similar to contemporary British practice. - And we know that ever since the days of HRH Prince Bertil's tenure as a naval attache in London during WW2, the navy was closely affiliated with the RN!
5) A helipad w/o hangar has been constructed immediately forward of the Terrier installation, and above its magazine. I figure this is the only way of keeping top weight down to an acceptable level. The Sea Knight I picked from the parts sheet, but modified it to conform with Swedish requirements and painted it acordingly (again with the severe limitations of my Paint-program in mind!) and gave it Swedish insignias.
6) The RB-08 canisters were found on the missile part sheet. Their placement is, I think, one of very few realistc ones. I rejected the idea of using a similar launcher as the Halland-class were equipped with. I believe at the time it might even have been obsolete.
7) I changed the enclosure of the portholes, since I was far from satisfied with my previous attempt. This method ought to make them stand out less, yet mark their original positions.
8) I used the same twin 57 mm m60 that ws used on the Dutch Eendracht-class and a few French cruisers. The number I chose is 10 (5x2) with the fifth turret at the extrem bows forward, replacing the single 40 mm m38 AA gun. I really think this would be the only possible position of it if choosing a 10 gun-configuration. I also chose to retain four of the 40 mm m48 AA guns in their sponsons. Further, I installed the British-made Corvus chaff/flare at the aftermost section of the superstructure.

I think that's all for now.
So, here's my take on a Swedish Missile cruiser of the Cold War. ;)

[ img ]
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