Fortyfive mm torpedos seems awfully light...
Also, question: Should all the guns be 45 calibers long?
Overall I think she seems like she will be very pretty. I like the feature with the all centerline turrets.
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| Armored cruiser, 1905 http://67.205.157.234/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3863 |
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| Author: | Psilander [ January 3rd, 2013, 4:13 pm ] | |
| Post subject: | Armored cruiser, 1905 | |
I have started to redesign my armored cruiser "Valkyria". I want her more to be natural step towards the true battlecruisers and a response to the Russian Ruriks and German Scharnhorst. And kepp her within 10000t aswell First attempt
A-type,
Sweden Armored cruiser laid down 1905 Displacement: 8 654 t light; 9 070 t standard; 9 669 t normal; 10 148 t full load Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (465,88 ft / 459,32 ft) x 65,62 ft x (20,34 / 21,14 ft) (142,00 m / 140,00 m) x 20,00 m x (6,20 / 6,44 m) Armament: 6 - 8,27" / 210 mm 45,0 cal guns - 284,98lbs / 129,26kg shells, 150 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1905 Model 3 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority aft 8 - 5,98" / 152 mm 45,0 cal guns - 108,07lbs / 49,02kg shells, 150 per gun Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1905 Model 8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread 8 - 2,95" / 75,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 12,98lbs / 5,89kg shells, 150 per gun Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1905 Model 6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread 6 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas 2 x Single mounts on centreline, aft deck forward 2 raised mounts Weight of broadside 2 678 lbs / 1 215 kg Main Torpedoes 2 - 1,8" / 45 mm, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m torpedoes - 0,069 t each, 0,138 t total submerged side tubes Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 7,28" / 185 mm 360,89 ft / 110,00 m 9,71 ft / 2,96 m Ends: 2,95" / 75 mm 95,14 ft / 29,00 m 9,71 ft / 2,96 m 3,28 ft / 1,00 m Unarmoured ends Upper: 2,95" / 75 mm 321,52 ft / 98,00 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m Main Belt covers 121 % of normal length - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 5,98" / 152 mm 3,94" / 100 mm 5,98" / 152 mm 2nd: 3,94" / 100 mm 2,56" / 65 mm 3,94" / 100 mm 3rd: 1,77" / 45 mm 0,79" / 20 mm 1,77" / 45 mm - Armoured deck - multiple decks: For and Aft decks: 1,57" / 40 mm Forecastle: 0,39" / 10 mm Quarter deck: 0,39" / 10 mm - Conning towers: Forward 5,98" / 152 mm, Aft 3,94" / 100 mm Machinery: Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines, Direct drive, 4 shafts, 30 946 shp / 23 086 Kw = 24,00 kts Range 4 000nm at 10,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 1 077 tons (80% coal) Complement: 486 - 633 Cost: £0,904 million / $3,616 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 632 tons, 6,5 % - Guns: 632 tons, 6,5 % - Weapons: 0 tons, 0,0 % Armour: 2 656 tons, 27,5 % - Belts: 1 475 tons, 15,3 % - Armament: 533 tons, 5,5 % - Armour Deck: 551 tons, 5,7 % - Conning Towers: 97 tons, 1,0 % Machinery: 2 528 tons, 26,1 % Hull, fittings & equipment: 2 837 tons, 29,3 % Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 015 tons, 10,5 % Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0 % Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 8 846 lbs / 4 012 Kg = 31,3 x 8,3 " / 210 mm shells or 26,4 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,37 Metacentric height 4,6 ft / 1,4 m Roll period: 12,8 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,28 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,10 Hull form characteristics: Hull has rise forward of midbreak, a ram bow and a cruiser stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,552 / 0,558 Length to Beam Ratio: 7,00 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 21,43 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees Stern overhang: -3,28 ft / -1,00 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 20,00 %, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m - Forward deck: 20,00 %, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m - Aft deck: 50,00 %, 11,48 ft / 3,50 m, 11,48 ft / 3,50 m - Quarter deck: 10,00 %, 11,48 ft / 3,50 m, 11,48 ft / 3,50 m - Average freeboard: 15,03 ft / 4,58 m Ship tends to be wet forward Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 108,8 % - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 114,2 % Waterplane Area: 21 073 Square feet or 1 958 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 % Structure weight / hull surface area: 106 lbs/sq ft or 515 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 0,96 - Longitudinal: 1,37 - Overall: 1,00 Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space Adequate accommodation and workspace room |
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| Author: | KHT [ January 3rd, 2013, 4:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Armored cruiser, 1905 |
Fortyfive mm torpedos seems awfully light... Also, question: Should all the guns be 45 calibers long? Overall I think she seems like she will be very pretty. I like the feature with the all centerline turrets.
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| Author: | Psilander [ January 3rd, 2013, 6:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Armored cruiser, 1905 |
Adjusted some data. Valkyria, Swedem Armored cruiser laid down 1905 Displacement: 8 965 t light; 9 388 t standard; 10 000 t normal; 10 489 t full load Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (465,88 ft / 459,32 ft) x 65,62 ft x (20,34 / 21,14 ft) (142,00 m / 140,00 m) x 20,00 m x (6,20 / 6,44 m) Armament: 6 - 8,27" / 210 mm 45,0 cal guns - 284,98lbs / 129,26kg shells, 150 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1905 Model 3 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority aft 8 - 5,98" / 152 mm 45,0 cal guns - 108,07lbs / 49,02kg shells, 150 per gun Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1905 Model 8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread 8 - 2,95" / 75,0 mm 50,0 cal guns - 13,63lbs / 6,18kg shells, 150 per gun Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1905 Model 6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread 6 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas 2 x Single mounts on centreline, aft deck forward 2 raised mounts Weight of broadside 2 683 lbs / 1 217 kg Main Torpedoes 2 - 17,7" / 450 mm, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m torpedoes - 0,955 t each, 1,910 t total submerged side tubes Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 7,28" / 185 mm 360,89 ft / 110,00 m 9,71 ft / 2,96 m Ends: 2,95" / 75 mm 95,14 ft / 29,00 m 9,71 ft / 2,96 m 3,28 ft / 1,00 m Unarmoured ends Upper: 2,95" / 75 mm 321,52 ft / 98,00 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m Main Belt covers 121 % of normal length - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 5,98" / 152 mm 3,94" / 100 mm 5,98" / 152 mm 2nd: 3,94" / 100 mm 2,56" / 65 mm 3,94" / 100 mm 3rd: 1,77" / 45 mm 0,79" / 20 mm 1,77" / 45 mm - Armoured deck - multiple decks: For and Aft decks: 1,57" / 40 mm Forecastle: 0,39" / 10 mm Quarter deck: 0,39" / 10 mm - Conning towers: Forward 5,98" / 152 mm, Aft 3,94" / 100 mm Machinery: Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines, Direct drive, 4 shafts, 31 865 shp / 23 772 Kw = 24,00 kts Range 4 000nm at 10,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 1 101 tons (80% coal) Complement: 499 - 650 Cost: £0,926 million / $3,705 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 639 tons, 6,4 % - Guns: 635 tons, 6,4 % - Weapons: 4 tons, 0,0 % Armour: 2 670 tons, 26,7 % - Belts: 1 477 tons, 14,8 % - Armament: 533 tons, 5,3 % - Armour Deck: 561 tons, 5,6 % - Conning Towers: 99 tons, 1,0 % Machinery: 2 603 tons, 26,0 % Hull, fittings & equipment: 2 872 tons, 28,7 % Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 035 tons, 10,4 % Miscellaneous weights: 180 tons, 1,8 % - Hull below water: 50 tons - Hull above water: 50 tons - On freeboard deck: 50 tons - Above deck: 30 tons Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 9 000 lbs / 4 082 Kg = 31,8 x 8,3 " / 210 mm shells or 1,9 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,36 Metacentric height 4,6 ft / 1,4 m Roll period: 12,9 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 49 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,27 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,06 Hull form characteristics: Hull has rise forward of midbreak, a ram bow and a cruiser stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,571 / 0,576 Length to Beam Ratio: 7,00 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 21,43 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees Stern overhang: -3,28 ft / -1,00 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 20,00 %, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m - Forward deck: 20,00 %, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m - Aft deck: 50,00 %, 11,48 ft / 3,50 m, 11,48 ft / 3,50 m - Quarter deck: 10,00 %, 11,48 ft / 3,50 m, 11,48 ft / 3,50 m - Average freeboard: 15,03 ft / 4,58 m Ship tends to be wet forward Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 109,4 % - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 113,2 % Waterplane Area: 21 450 Square feet or 1 993 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 % Structure weight / hull surface area: 105 lbs/sq ft or 514 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 0,97 - Longitudinal: 1,35 - Overall: 1,00 Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space Adequate accommodation and workspace room |
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| Author: | Psilander [ January 3rd, 2013, 9:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Armored cruiser, 1905 |
A first sketch ![[ img ]](http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii22/psilander/atype.png)
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| Author: | Thiel [ January 3rd, 2013, 9:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Armored cruiser, 1905 |
Neat, but I'd keep all four funnels at the same height. It looks better and I don't think the current setup will confer any real advantages. |
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| Author: | Hood [ January 4th, 2013, 10:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Armored cruiser, 1905 |
But that highher fore funnel will keep the foremast spotting top freer from smoke interference. X turret might have poorer arcs over the stern sectors but I can't see any alternative, in all I see potential in this design. |
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| Author: | Psilander [ January 4th, 2013, 10:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Armored cruiser, 1905 |
I made some changes - added 4 casemat 21cm guns so she can match the Scharnhorst broadside of 8 21cm guns with just an increase in length of 5m and 2dm in draught and 650tons. She gets better stability and seakeeping as a bonus. - Funnel shortened, but I do prefere the higher first funnel, to keep the spotting top and bridge free of smoke. ![[ img ]](http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii22/psilander/atype-1.png) Valkyria, Swedem Armored cruiser laid down 1905 Displacement: 9 480 t light; 10 012 t standard; 10 650 t normal; 11 160 t full load Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (482,28 ft / 475,72 ft) x 65,62 ft x (21,00 / 21,80 ft) (147,00 m / 145,00 m) x 20,00 m x (6,40 / 6,65 m) Armament: 6 - 8,27" / 210 mm 45,0 cal guns - 284,97lbs / 129,26kg shells, 150 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1905 Model 3 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, majority aft 8 - 5,98" / 152 mm 45,0 cal guns - 108,07lbs / 49,02kg shells, 150 per gun Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1905 Model 8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread 8 - 2,95" / 75,0 mm 50,0 cal guns - 13,62lbs / 6,18kg shells, 150 per gun Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1905 Model 6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread 6 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas 2 x Single mounts on centreline, aft deck forward 2 raised mounts 4 - 8,27" / 210 mm 45,0 cal guns - 284,98lbs / 129,26kg shells, 150 per gun Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1905 Model 4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread Weight of broadside 3 823 lbs / 1 734 kg Main Torpedoes 2 - 17,7" / 450 mm, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m torpedoes - 0,955 t each, 1,910 t total submerged side tubes Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 7,28" / 185 mm 360,89 ft / 110,00 m 9,71 ft / 2,96 m Ends: 2,95" / 75 mm 95,14 ft / 29,00 m 9,71 ft / 2,96 m 19,69 ft / 6,00 m Unarmoured ends Upper: 2,95" / 75 mm 321,52 ft / 98,00 m 8,01 ft / 2,44 m Main Belt covers 117 % of normal length - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 5,98" / 152 mm 3,94" / 100 mm 5,98" / 152 mm 2nd: 3,94" / 100 mm 2,56" / 65 mm 3,94" / 100 mm 3rd: 1,77" / 45 mm 0,79" / 20 mm 1,77" / 45 mm 4th: 5,98" / 152 mm 2,56" / 65 mm 5,98" / 152 mm - Armoured deck - multiple decks: For and Aft decks: 1,57" / 40 mm Forecastle: 0,39" / 10 mm Quarter deck: 0,39" / 10 mm - Conning towers: Forward 5,98" / 152 mm, Aft 3,94" / 100 mm Machinery: Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines, Direct drive, 4 shafts, 32 467 shp / 24 221 Kw = 24,00 kts Range 4 000nm at 10,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 1 148 tons (80% coal) Complement: 523 - 681 Cost: £1,005 million / $4,019 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 804 tons, 7,6 % - Guns: 800 tons, 7,5 % - Weapons: 4 tons, 0,0 % Armour: 2 792 tons, 26,2 % - Belts: 1 482 tons, 13,9 % - Armament: 626 tons, 5,9 % - Armour Deck: 580 tons, 5,4 % - Conning Towers: 103 tons, 1,0 % Machinery: 2 653 tons, 24,9 % Hull, fittings & equipment: 3 052 tons, 28,7 % Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 170 tons, 11,0 % Miscellaneous weights: 180 tons, 1,7 % - Hull below water: 50 tons - Hull above water: 50 tons - On freeboard deck: 50 tons - Above deck: 30 tons Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 9 447 lbs / 4 285 Kg = 33,4 x 8,3 " / 210 mm shells or 1,9 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,35 Metacentric height 4,5 ft / 1,4 m Roll period: 12,9 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,35 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,11 Hull form characteristics: Hull has rise forward of midbreak, a ram bow and a cruiser stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,569 / 0,574 Length to Beam Ratio: 7,25 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 21,81 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees Stern overhang: -3,28 ft / -1,00 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 20,00 %, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m - Forward deck: 20,00 %, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m - Aft deck: 50,00 %, 11,48 ft / 3,50 m, 11,48 ft / 3,50 m - Quarter deck: 10,00 %, 11,48 ft / 3,50 m, 11,48 ft / 3,50 m - Average freeboard: 15,03 ft / 4,58 m Ship tends to be wet forward Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 109,3 % - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 111,6 % Waterplane Area: 22 171 Square feet or 2 060 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 % Structure weight / hull surface area: 110 lbs/sq ft or 537 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 0,97 - Longitudinal: 1,35 - Overall: 1,00 Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space Adequate accommodation and workspace room |
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| Author: | Thiel [ January 4th, 2013, 10:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Armored cruiser, 1905 |
Just thinking out loud here, but are you sure there's enough room in the casemates for both guns? Also, you might consider relocating one of your 75mm casemate guns to the superstructure. I know a similar mount was proposed on later Swedish designs. Specifically I'd move the midships one since right now it's right were I'd place coal bunkers to better protect the boilers. Additionally it'll be drier and be usable in much rougher weather. The fact that it isn't a massive weak-spot in the middle of the hull is also an advantage. |
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| Author: | Psilander [ January 4th, 2013, 11:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Armored cruiser, 1905 |
I think it could be moved either up, between the mid 21cm guns or on top of them, but that might linger with boat handling. Or to the aft super structure. Th 21cm casemates where to save space and weight, I doubt two single turrets would fit. |
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| Author: | Thiel [ January 4th, 2013, 12:05 pm ] | |
| Post subject: | Re: Armored cruiser, 1905 | |
I think could be move either up, between the mid 21cm guns or on top of them, but that might linger with both handling.
That's not really what I meant.Th 21cm casemates where to save space and weight, I doubt two single turrets would fit. Presumably the 21cm guns are going to take up quite a bit of room and I'm just not sure there's enough space between the two for them to fit. Judging by your turrets you need about 24ft of space to operate one of them effectively, but there's only 35ft from the front of the fore casemate to the rear of the aft casemate. Granted, casemate mounts tends to be more compact, but I suspect you'll have all kinds of gear interfering with each other, not to mention all the crew members who will be working at cross purposes. On top of that you won't be able to fit a bulkhead in between the two guns so a single hit will most likely take out both guns. In order to fix that I'd move the casemates further from each other and maybe shorten the barrels themselves. As for the 75mm guns I'd move the middle ones into the bridge structure. |
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