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Finnish AU
http://67.205.157.234/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=15		 Page 1 of 5
Author:  Gollevainen [ July 27th, 2010, 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Finnish AU
Decing to start another new thread for this scennario, as it has largely begun to roll around the communist alternative history idea, that roots from the largest "what if" of Finnish history, what if the red side would have won the civil war in 1918?
As that war itself is so complex and requires way too much of introductions, hypotesis and proper alt-history treatment, I mainly skip the historical plausability factor for the moment and focus on the navy in this forum. While the history rewrites itself behind the scenes, Ill return to it in time to time and in 'by request' -form.

Anyway, here is an introduction chart (I finally made one), and a short timeline (not as detailed as the Byzantine one, yet ...like I said, the history of the alternative Finnish civil war and its implications to the Russian civil war are still at the progress).

[ img ]

Ill post some ships today as well, just to show of to the newer generation of HOW to do proper AU... not in terms of bragging and selfindulgement (go away those from me! :P) but mainly to show how much dedication and carefull progress even a simple reall life never-where scenarios migth take, despite showing really small changes to the orginal art work.
Author:  Gollevainen [ July 27th, 2010, 2:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Red-Finland AU
The first destroyers:

[ img ]

The two upper drawings are fruits of propaply most fustrating drawing progress I've ever encountered. As part of true finnish naval newer-where's, the introduction of the two ex-RN V-class destroyers to my AU has been painfull. Two ships were sunk in Gulf of Finland in 1919 and sold to Finnish goverment for salvaging and recommisioning in real life and that Ive kept as one of the most intresting point to start the desing of the AU fleet.

Drawing them has been rather long progress. I used to drawn them in the very early stages of shipbucket, before the forum I recall and I wasen't pleased of the end desing. Later Porthsmouth Bill drew the proper W-class and despite beeing improvement of my first attempt, it still didn't somehow statisfy my needs. I cant explain what was wrong in that seccond drawing, but somehow all my kitbashings ended up unstatisfactorial to my eye.
Thus I started to drawn the ships third time, and this time defining the stylistic manners that I was going to use in my Red Finnish AU project, I manged to draw decent enough V-class destroyer that worked rather well with the ideas of its rebuilding in the Finnish People's navy usage...
For courtesy's sake I keep the unaltered V-class in my vaults, as in terms of shipbucket style and methods it doesen't provide any improvement over Porthmouth's one, just few stylistic features that stimulated my own creativity better.

Of the ships themselves, in this AU, they were sunk by same reasons when the RN fougth against both Finnish and Bolshevik fleets in the Baltic during the Russian civil war, and British goverment did not sell them to Finland, but their salvage was more clandestine operation and introducting them to proper fleet use after re equiping them with russian weapons was prolonged operation, just as was the drawing progress of these ships for me. ;)

Newertheless they served in their role as first destroyers for the fleet. They were later modernised with new boilers and prior to the outbreak of the WWII in eastern front, they were transferred to the Northern Waters where they served despite their age and small size against Kriegsmarine's large destroyer classes. Punalippu was sunk in 1943 after capsiding in a storm over the Barents Sea.

the two Novik's presents the three ships that Soviet Union Sold to Finland in 1933 to improve the naval defenses of its ally. The ships were old and worn out but still passed into service and later transferred to Arctic alongside with the two V-class veterans. All three survived the war and were finaly retired in the early 50's when more modern fleet units took their task in Arctic waters.

(the drawing of Valerian Kuibyshev I did post in real life as well, didn't I? <_< )

EDIT: Also, those who are intressed over little details, the Change of the ensigns marked the creation of the People's navy as seperate force from People's Army that the naval forces and coastal artillery had preveiously belonged (the tailed ensig remained to be used as the war engsing of the People's army.)

EDIT2: I also returned to the use of dark grey undersurfaces, who cares if the kids go copying it on their dutch AU ideas....they will copy me even if I draw battle bananas for my fleet...

EDIT3: Did i say dutch?....I most sincerely ment all AU ideas that there is floating around :rolleyes:
Author:  Gollevainen [ July 27th, 2010, 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Red-Finland AU
Here is a small chart of the rank insignia and assorted badges. Ok, perhaps bit far-fetched for a shipbucket but as its part of the scennario and so on and so on...
(and it would have been rather unneserical to open a new thread for them in some other forum.)

[ img ]
Author:  Vossiej [ July 27th, 2010, 5:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Red-Finland AU
Looks promosing! I wonder if you can compete with your previous AU's :P
I am sure you won't let us down.
Author:  Gollevainen [ July 30th, 2010, 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Red-Finland AU
Ok, here some Border Guards ship class vessels from the Barents/White Sea flottilla.

[ img ]

The leading ship is Pohjola, single Pr.52 class ship Build In Leningrad, In Soviet Union. Her construction started at 1938, but due the WWII, she was completed only well postwar and After commisioning the Soviet ensign for few months she was then sold to Finland, where she served all the way untill finally retired as Museum ship in Murman city in 1990. She was First armed ice-breaker of the People's navy (due OTL sentimental support for finnish sailors and harbour workers, I wont embark naval ensigns onboard my AU's civilian Ice-breakers) And her mission was mostly to watch out Seal poachers and illegal Whalers around the entrance to the White Sea.

The need for Ice strenghted patroll assets rose gradually as not only the Soviet installations in Murman and Montsenmäki rose during the cold war, but also from Increased shipping to White Sea with vessels that were too large to be transferred via the Karelian Channal passages. Therefore two Soviet Pr.97AP class Border Guard ships were purchased in the early 1980's to Supplement the old Pohjola.

Towards late 1980's the economical prospects of Barent's sea, not only as fishing waters, but as a base for strategical resources begun to attract the Finnish leadership. To ensure more Offshore presence to the Border Guards beyond the Maritime borders, two Speciallised Border Guard Ships of the Pr.730 were constructed in Rauma-Repola Yards. They were based on the Soviet Pr. 1453 class Salvage tugs but fitted with Naval radiological sensors and Gun as well as torbedo armament. They also featured inbuild Telescopic Hangar for Kamov Ka-28/32 helicopter.

The mainstay of the Arctic patroll vessels have belonged to the Pr.55 class. These are adaptaition of standard 800 ton Ocean tugs with icebreaking qualities. These ships were build between 1950's and mid 1970's for both Arctic and Baltic fleets and different sub classes can be recconisable from different superstructures and funnel installations.
Author:  ALVAMA [ July 30th, 2010, 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Red-Finland AU
Awesome! Excellent work! I've some copies of East German ships, if they'll be usefully for you aswell?
Author:  Gollevainen [ July 30th, 2010, 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Red-Finland AU
not perhaps for this project, but as generall Im always intressed of eastern european ships.
Author:  ALVAMA [ July 30th, 2010, 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Red-Finland AU
Oké I'll make some ready to send by email!
Author:  Gollevainen [ August 15th, 2010, 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Red-Finland AU
I have slowly managed to synchronise my thoughts considering the older Novgorod project (and its love affair to the Arctic wastelands of Northern Russia, traditionally inhabited by ugric people) to my Finnish AU project. Getting around the "little finland" or Finland of what we know it today in AU form has been exiting, but alltogether, not so grand project as it has mainly included renaming and rearming existing desings and flavoring that set with few known never-where's of Finnish orgin.
So there is much room for enlargement, and this time I choose first time to go to the East. The idea of Independend "Grand Finland". For long, the Novgorod project prevented me to creating one in same universe, and when I choose to move the Novgorod into more Southern waters, I came to conclusion that such Grand Finnish project couldn't work in same universe neither, as such it would deny Moscovian Russia access to the sea completely in its european holdings.
Thus it took bit time for me to adjust these two into seperate universums and begun to wonder the idea of How FInland would have become so large and Independent.
Sofar my imagination had brougth me back to the days when i worked with Novgorod's history. Back then, the year 1478 was the culminating point. If Novgorod would have won Ivan III...
That was then. Now I wondered, what if they had lost like they were supposed, BUT Instead of complete annexation of the Novgorodia Zemlja, Only the city and the areas around the lake Ilmen, but the Wealth of the Republic, the fur hunting lands of the north Would have been left in the hands of those merchants that now rested in the city of Novaja Ladoga around the lake Ladoga. It would leave Novgorod with lands us Fins or atleast myself have kept as "finnic" by heritage. To add into this idea a alternative course of history 200 years earlier, when Aleksander Nevsky wouldn't have just defeated the Swedens, but Claimed all the Finnish Proper into Novgorod to strenghen his position against the Mongols of the South and deny the Swedish ambitions to harrash his westward realm.
...makes little sense, but It would bring the needed strong Finnish contignent to play inside Novgorod, perhaps few finnish merchants into the rada and soon the New "Novgorod" of Novaja Ladoga would turn into a Laatokanlinna and the tongue of the rulers begun to match the ones of the peasants....

Novgorod as it begins in the 1400 age
[ img ]
Then after the fall of the city
[ img ]
And then the Finnish realm in its migth (effectively replacing the Swedish Super Power years in the Baltic)
[ img ]
And then the Peter Velikyi draws the new borders for his grand plans for sea...
[ img ]

And we eventually see the current borders...

[ img ]
Author:  Gollevainen [ August 15th, 2010, 5:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Red-Finland AU
...such a little introduction ( the proper one will follow, yadiyaa...)
to launch some ships from the vaults that I have been working on along side the Byzantium's cruisers...
[ img ]

Väinämöinen
Like I said, in my AU's I like to honour the spirit of the Finnish working class and Wont replace the normal working ice-breakers under Naval ensign. Except these two ships, the Nuclear powered Väinämöinen and Ilmarinen. Thougth they are intended to operate in the Kara Sea and in the Gulf of Ob, to assist the emerging naturall gas and oil industry in the region, they still held strategical value for the People's deputy (the government) becouse of their Soviet made KLT-40 Nuclear reactors that had alternative testing purpose in devolping submarine based nuclear porpulsion for then (late 80's ) planned nuclear attack submarines.

As for the drawing, back when Lazer_one first appeared on the shipbucket I recall quite presicely telling him that he can draw what ever he likes, but should leave Finnish build stuff to me, specially these two ships Vaigats and Taymur. He did not, and I felt hurt as I had planned to drawn them soon as I would have seen my skill fit for the task (for same reason I still wont start Sovjetsky Sojuz nor Konstrad, untill I feel I've perfected my craft to maxium). Bad plan for me, as Lazer_one drew them before me, and as usuall his work was good enough for me not to dare "challenge" him by providing an alternative take of the ships. It also back then ment that I didn't want to be anywhere near to these ships due a stubborn hurt pride ;) (despite them beeing center piece of my old AU ideas since I was about 13 years old).
I migth be hot tempered for time to time, but time tends to make my fustration melt and I felt why not to give a small paint work for Lazer_Ones drawings and finaly include them into my AU projects.
It proved out not to be anywhere "small" work, as Apparently back then Lazer had not fully incorporated the meaning of shipbucket and paintwork particularry in it. When basicly every block and section was made in different shade of same color, it was basicly impossible to just repaint the ship for my liking, but Instead I had to brush it out to plain black lines and recolor and partially redrawn some parts I had to ditch out. That task took the longest ammount of time over any of these other ships that I drew myself. It gave me small concolence from the grief of not having been able to drawn these ships myself, and In same breathstake I was kinda glad that I eventually didn't do it. As if Lazer_one migth have had strange coloring styles, he sure did knew how to do the basic drawing of the basic ship components and parts, decks and their ladders and so on and so on...and in a blockhouse style of ship like these, one needs to master the cubical and square based drawing and my more "rounded" style would have propaply not work so well.

Maaselkä
This one off Ice-breaker was part of series of four ships build to mainly Soviet Union's Antartic expenditions but one vessel was retained by the Finnish People's navy and embarked as logistical support ship in the Arctic, mainly to support garrisons in the large offshore islands. Despite of her old age, she is still on commision and used mainly only in wintertime while beeing rehauled during summer.

Kalevanpoika
This one of ship was result of pure mathematical calculations by the People's army and Navy's joint comitee for producing simplest possible platform to transfer one regiment of Motorised Rifle troops to various "foreing" locations, be them Warsaw Pact exersises of deployments in Africa supporting some surrogate dictators of Soviet cause. The plan called construction of two large barge carries, that could transport various of style of cargoes, raging from barges to container cases and speciall accomodition containers were designed to house the transferred personell. Only one ship was eventually commisioned during the time when it was no longer properly needed by Finnish politics (the Ethiopian and Angolan missions were called off and no big Warsaw Pact war games were at sigth after the wall came down). She was still retained and has been source of various conversion plans and projects, raging from civilian oil drilling platform to a full Aircraft Carrier conversion.
During the summer of 1990 she tested container-based V/STOL launching platforms together with the Soviet Navy and embarked succsesfull fligths from both Yak-38 and Yak-141 prototype. Thougth neither plane was bougth by the Finns, the launching platform material was retained by the People's Navy.

Sosiaalidemkraatti
The late 80's marked increasing shipbuilding in the Arctic waters as the Yamal penisula and adjoining water's oil and gas reserves begun to emerge for full use. In case of increasing shiping, need for good salvage and oil-cathering capacity rose, as well as the Finnish fustration for faulty soviet Northern Fleet's submarines that coused nuclear hazards every once and then in the Murman fjord where the Rented bases were located. A series of three salvage tugs were build in Rauma, two going to the Soviets and one entering People's Navy use in Murman. This ice-breaker type of ship is well equiped for salvaging not only normal ships but also for submarine salvage, fire-figthing and normal tug operations. She can also serve as submarine tender and has been used also as High govermental yacth due her rather luxury level of interiors.

Kolkuja
Kolkuja belongs to a series of civil exploration and reasearch vessels build for the soviet need as well as one ship serving in Finnish maritime research institute. Kolkuja is fitted for eletronical surveilance and inteligence cathering and is usually embarked on Norwegian coast to pick NATO radio transferrs as well as recoriding various radar singatures from western naval vessels operating in that area. Her civilian sister ship, Jäämeri houses special acustic research equipment and has been used for searching natural gas and oil fields from the Barent sea.
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