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Alternate Cold War (aka Hoodverse) http://67.205.157.234/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=10765	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Hood [ March 17th, 2023, 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Alternate Cold War (aka Hoodverse)
Since 2005 I have been working on and off on a fictional alternate Cold War scenario. I've never completed detailed planning on it but I have a rough frame of reference in my own mind. Basically a Cold War with less nuclear tension but which is still every bit as ideologically opposed with a divided world. My Alternate Royal Navy (viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6879) sits within this background context and forms part of the AU. My Alternate Soviet Navy (viewtopic.php?f=14&t=8317) likewise forms part of this AU. Both of these AUs are 'plug and play' scenarios - i.e. not all the ships necessarily exist together at the same time but rather give a wide variety of options that could have existed within this AU background. My two fictional USN frigates were part of the original Shipbucket Cold War AU project, recently updated and still form part of this arc (viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9871). Moving forwards, I hope to offer some geographic in-depth focus of this AU world. Progress will be slow, perhaps halting, but the first instalment is more or less ready.

Author:	Hood [ March 17th, 2023, 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Alternate Cold War (aka Hoodverse)
The Baltic Sea: Playground of the Corvettes During the Cold War the naval powers of the Baltic, whether part of NATO, the Warsaw Pact or neutral, faced off across a small sea and one where the danger from aerial attack was ever present and where submarines found shallow waters difficult to operate within. Small fast craft proved to be the ideal striking platforms for coastal defence and sea denial, but by the 1970s all the Baltic nations were engaged in a mini naval arms race to build better corvettes. Federal Republic of Germany (aka West Germany) Klasse 121 Originally the Bundesmarine wanted ten Tartar-armed corvettes, but this proved both unaffordable and unfeasible given the size of ship required. In 1968 work shifted to four air defence frigates to replace the ex-USN Fletcher-class destroyers and these were approved in January 1969 by the German parliament. The larger ships proved equally expensive and one was cancelled in early 1971 but three ships were completed. Stuttgart (F126) - commissioned Oct 1975 Hannover (F127) - commissioned July 1976 Weisbaden (F128) - commissioned Sept 1977 Displacement: 3,200 tons (standard), 3,600 tons (full load) Dimensions: 130 x 13.7 x 4m Armament: 1x Mk 13 launcher for 40x RIM-24 Tatar, 1x Mk 29 launcher for 16x RIM-7 Sea Sparrow, 3x 76mm OTO, 4x torpedo tubes (fixed fantail tubes) (4x MM38 Exocet SSMs were added in the 1980s) Electronics: includes AN/SPS-01 3-D air search radar, 2x WM-25 fire control radars and 2x AN/SPG-51C illuminators Propulsion: CODOG with 2x 27,000shp Rolls-Royce Olympus gas turbines and 2x 5,200hp MTU diesels Speed: 30kt Crew: 250 Klasse 130 The Klasse 130 corvette was a project to provide a control ship for a mixed force of Klasse 143 FACs and Sea King helicopters. This design was by Entwicklungsburo Poseidon Kiel GmbH with construction by Howaldstwerke. Only four vessels were authorised and built, although Greece did buy two similar vessels. Jaguar (K101) - commissioned April 1976 Iltis (K102) - commissioned July 1977 Leopard (K103) - commissioned December 1977 Löwe (K104) - commissioned June 1978 Displacement: 1,075 tons Length: 79.5m Armament: 8x MM38 Exocet SSMs, 1x Mk 29 launcher for 16x RIM-7 Sea Sparrow, 1x 76mm OTO, 2x 20mm Rhienmetall Electronics: Vega fire-control with Triton search radar and 2x WM-25 fire control radars, Ferranti CAAIS with a Collins datalink Propulsion: CODELEG - 2x 22,000hp Roll-Royce Spey gas turbines, 2x 19,250kW turbo-generators supplying 2x 1,350kW 2-3 phase Siemens electric motors (used for cruising only) Speed: 40kt Range: 2,500nm at 18kt (ship designed to stay at sea for 5 days) Crew: 8 officers, 34 petty officers, 20 ratings Denmark Korvett 72 In December 1972 the Danish Navy began the Korvet-72 (aka KV-72) project, a small corvette of 1,300 tons to replace the four Triton-class corvettes. In January 1973 Orlogsværftet completed the first sketch design, B.3 which was ordered later that year. A total of four ships were planned. US defence aid saw the new RGM-54 dual-role Sea Phoenix being integrated into the design but costs spiralled and in 1974 work began on a cheaper Harpoon and Sea Sparrow equipped vessel, which became the Niels Juels-class. Only one Korvett 72 was completed, it being politically impossible not to build the lead-ship in order to retain US defence aid funding for future corvettes. Herluf Trolle (F354) - commissioned October 1976 Displacement: 1,050 tons Length: 82m Armament: 24x RGM-54 Sea Phoenix SSM/SAMs, 1x 76mm OTO, 2x 40mm Bofors, 1x 3-barrelled 120mm Bofors A/S rocket launcher Electronics: Plessey AWS-2 search radar, 1x SAAB 9LV 200 director, AN/SPS-99 (modified AWG-9) fire-control system Propulsion: 2x 12,750shp Rolls Royce Marine Proteus gas turbines and 1x 4,800hp MTU diesel engine Speed: 20kt on diesels and 30kt on gas turbines Crew: 91 Sweden Ro-1 Class By 1971 Sweden was looking for a flotilla leader corvette of around 700 tons displacement which would also be capable of relieving the ageing destroyer fleet from escort duties. Two vessels were wanted and a series of development studies were begun. Work continued into the later 1970s, under the Ro 1 designation. The design evolved with newer model 57mm Bofors gun mounts, still including the single ASW mortar. An addition was two anti-ship missiles, originally the Rb11 SKA which was being developed for coastal defence use, a weapon in the Harpoon class. Work on this weapon was later abandoned and replaced by the RBS-15. Two corvettes were built. Ehrensköld (K1) - commissioned Sept 1978 Nordenskjöld (K2) - commissioned July 1979 Displacement: 715 tons Length: 79.5m (overall) Armament: 4x SAAB RBS-15 SSMs, 1x2 SAAB launcher for 16x RBS-70 SAMs, 1x 57mm Bofors, 1x single-barrelled 120mm Bofors A/S rocket launcher, depth-charges (homing torpedoes can be fitted) Electronics: Ericson Rovfåglar air-search radar, Ericson Sea Giraffe search radar and 2x SAAB 9LV 200 directors Propulsion: 1x 12,750shp Rolls Royce Marine Proteus gas turbine and 2x 2,750hp MTU diesel engines Speed: 20kt on diesels and 31kt on gas turbines Crew: 70 Finland Finland had suffered an embarrassing failure with the broad-beam Isku with its 'seasled' design in the early 1970s. Acquiring Project 205U 'Osa-II' craft from the USSR seemed the only solution, but a new high-speed FAC design of much better seaworthiness was developed with assistance from the United Kingdom. Aunus - commissioned September 1977 Gilyak - commissioned June 1978 Tampere - commissioned August 1978 Viena - commissioned May 1979 Displacement: 290 tons Length: 50m Armament: 4x P-15 Termit SSMs, 1x 57mm Bofors, 1x2 30mm AK-230, depth-charges Electronics: MR-331 Rangout search radar, Terma navigation radar, MR-104 Rys fire-control radar Propulsion: 2x 12,750shp Rolls Royce Marine Proteus gas turbines and 2x 6,200hp Napier Turbo-Deltic diesel engines Speed: 25kt on diesels and 42kt on gas turbines Crew: 32 German Democratic Republic (aka East Germany) Project 10 Falke The GDR had been an early builder of corvettes. It's naval construction programme following rearmament in the mid-1950s included four frigates (although East Germany insisted on calling them destroyers well into the 1970s). The USSR attempted to force the GDR to buy four very similar Project 50 Gornostay 'Riga'-class frigates instead but the German communist government was able to withstand this pressure from Moscow and four ships were built. They were modestly updated in the 1970s (data as below) and finally decommissioned in the late 1980s. One ship was built for Tanzania, against strong Soviet objections. Ernst Thälmann (101) - commissioned Sept 1960 Karl Marx (102) - commissioned Nov 1961 Karl Liebknecht (103) - commissioned July 1962 Friedrich Engels (104) - commissioned Dec 1962 Displacement: 1,290 tons Length: 111m (overall) Armament: 4x 100mm B-34, 3x2 37mm V-11, 1x3 533mm torpedo-tube mount (Type 53 torepdoes), 2x RBU-2500 A/S rocket launchers, depth-charges, refitted with 2x4 Strela 2M MANPADs Electronics: Volga search radar, TRS-series navigation radar, TGF-102 fire-control radar on a Type 21 optical director Propulsion: 20,000shp steam turbines Speed: 28kt Project 415 The Project 415 GRP-hulled minesweeper/ hunter was planned in eight variants depending on the MCM equipment carried as part of a joint project with Poland. Most of the diverse variants were cancelled but eight boats were completed for the Volksmarine. 8 boats (431 to 438) - commissioned 1992-95 Displacement: 248 tons Dimensions: 35 m x 7.96 m x 1.85 m Armament: 1x 30mm AK630 Electronics: TRS-333 search/navigation radar Propulsion: 2x diesel engines Speed: 12kts Poland Project 666 Czerwonak ORP Mazur - commissioned July 1979 ORP Ślązak - commissioned April 1980 ORP Kurp - commissioned Dec 1980 ORP Krakowiak - commissioned Aug 1981 In 1975 Poland authorised the Project 666 'Czerwonak' large submarine chaser into production in order to modernise the anti-submarine fleet in the face of improving West German and Swedish submarine technology. Displacement: 600 tons Dimensions: 59.25 m x 9.8 m x 2.48 m Armament: 1x2 57mm AK-725, 2x2 30mm AK230, 2x2 Striela-1M launchers for Strela 2M MANPADs, 1x RBU-1200 A/S rocket launcher, 4x 400mm A/S torpedo tubes and depth-charges Electronics: MR-302 search radar, SRN-823 navigation radar and MR-103 Bars fire-control radar Propulsion: 6x 4,000hp M504 diesel engines Speed: 39.5kts Range: 850nm at 30kt Crew: 54 Project 666.2 The Project 666.2 was a variant of the Project 666 'Czerwonak' large submarine chaser project to demonstrate that a large missile boat could be developed on the same hull. Four boats were built. ORP Błyskawiczny - commissioned June 1980 ORP Bitny - commissioned March 1981 ORP Bystry - commissioned Dec 1981 ORP Dziarski - commissioned May 1982 Armament: 4x P-20 Termit SSMs, 2x2 57mm AK-725, 2x2 30mm AK230, 2x2 Striela-1M launchers for Strela 2M MANPADs Crew: 48 Project 415 Poland received six minesweepers from the GDR as part of the joint programme. The Polish boats received a 1x 23mm Wrobel mount.

Author:	Gollevainen [ March 17th, 2023, 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Alternate Cold War (aka Hoodverse)
Looks really great. and nice to see those old DDR minesweeper drawings getting new touch. Thought, I noticed at this some point in my own german intresses in the neverweres, that the Actuall OA lenght of the Fregatte 70/Klasse 121 as given in german books is 134m, not the 130m as in errornously given by the janes (it does give the imperial measurument system lengt correctly as 426.5 feet). Sorry that I didnt realise to mention this earlier, since the drawing of the Klasse121 of yours is really great otherwise

Author:	eswube [ March 17th, 2023, 8:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Alternate Cold War (aka Hoodverse)
Great start to an AU! One note: "Czerwonak" was a code-name of the design programme, but wouldn't be used as a name of the ship. And other names are used also bit randomly: Ślązak, Kurp, Krakowiak, Mazur, Kujawiak come from ethnic regions (specifically - men from these regions, literally meaning: man from Silesia, man from Kurpie, man from Kraków, man from Masuria, man from Kuyavia respectively), while Błyskawiczny is an adjective ("one posessing lightning-like speed), and names from these groups are extremely unlikely to be mixed together like this. (matter of naming Cold War era Polish ships for AU purposes has been discused in the past: http://shipbucket.com/forums/viewtopic. ... 09#p163109 onwards)

Author:

Hood [ March 18th, 2023, 10:23 am ]

Post subject:

Re: Alternate Cold War (aka Hoodverse)

eswube wrote: *

March 17th, 2023, 8:07 pm

Great start to an AU!

One note: "Czerwonak" was a code-name of the design programme, but wouldn't be used as a name of the ship. And other names are used also bit randomly: Ślązak, Kurp, Krakowiak, Mazur, Kujawiak come from ethnic regions (specifically - men from these regions, literally meaning: man from Silesia, man from Kurpie, man from Kraków, man from Masuria, man from Kuyavia respectively), while Błyskawiczny is an adjective ("one posessing lightning-like speed), and names from these groups are extremely unlikely to be mixed together like this.
(matter of naming Cold War era Polish ships for AU purposes has been discused in the past: http://shipbucket.com/forums/viewtopic. ... 09#p163109 onwards)

That is true, I probably did mess up here. Reusing old names probably wasn't a good idea but then the Polish Navy has never been large enough to recycle 'historic' names and the famous ones of course have been re-used.
In my defence Ślązak, Kurp, Krakowiak, Mazur and Kujawiak were all part of the M-XV-class submarines, as was Kazub and since Kazub was re-used for a frigate/corvette I thought why not use the rest too?
Błyskawiczny was lifted from the torpedo-boats, which is a poor mix I agree but is a more fitting FAC name.
I'll have a rethink at some point on these.

Author:	eswube [ March 18th, 2023, 10:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Alternate Cold War (aka Hoodverse)
Reusing old names was perfectly sound idea. Mixing them up, and throwing "Czerwonak" among them, was not. Ślązak, Kaszub (with "s") et al. were originally used on ex-German torpedo boats, then on WW2 Hunt-class destroyer escorts, then on Pr.96's and Pr.620 (more of which were planned). Błyskawiczny, Zawzięty et al. were used on submarine chasers and torpedo FAC's, and were not used since then because navy decided to start using city names instead on Pr.205s, and there weren't otherwise that many ships to need naming, but not because these names were somehow "restricted" to specific category. My point was not that you couldn't use these names (except Czerwonak, of course) on either class (as it was more-or-less equally plausible to either category of names to either category of vessels), but that you shouldn't have them mixed within same class.

Author:	Hood [ March 19th, 2023, 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Alternate Cold War (aka Hoodverse)
Thanks, names edited now.

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