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JSB
Post subject: Re: United States of VenezuelaPosted: July 25th, 2015, 7:16 pm
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Just my thoughts but if I was the Admiral I would go with C (and maybe ditch the rear 5" mount to make her shorter and lower the directors away from the funnel and ditch the TTs) it doesn't look as nice but 6 x 15" makes her a threat to much more ships than the 10" option does (and she will be treated as a capital ship for budget/treaty purposes anyway may as well make her dangerous to one).

This does make her a week capital ship but with 6x15" she can realistically threaten even S&G (and D&S,Kongo's,R&R,etc) not just the PBs, much better value for money IMO.


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MihoshiK
Post subject: Re: United States of VenezuelaPosted: July 25th, 2015, 7:37 pm
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JSB wrote:
Just my thoughts but if I was the Admiral I would go with C (and maybe ditch the rear 5" mount to make her shorter and lower the directors away from the funnel and ditch the TTs) it doesn't look as nice but 6 x 15" makes her a threat to much more ships than the 10" option does (and she will be treated as a capital ship for budget/treaty purposes anyway may as well make her dangerous to one).

This does make her a week capital ship but with 6x15" she can realistically threaten even S&G (and D&S,Kongo's,R&R,etc) not just the PBs, much better value for money IMO.
Congratulations, you've just fallen into the Battlecruiser Trap. Are you looking forward to reliving your own version of Jutland? Battlecruisers should NEVER tango with battleships. Battleships have the armor to take a pounding from battleship guns. Battlecruisers do not.

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JSB
Post subject: Re: United States of VenezuelaPosted: July 25th, 2015, 8:08 pm
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I would argue that maybe right for WW2 BC v WW2 fast BB BUT,

- Do S&G (and D&S,Kongo's,R&R,add any unmodernised WW1 BB) really count as WW2 BBs ? I would argue they all are too week to stand v a full treaty/post treaty fast BB.(and fast post treaty BBs are very limited in number anyway)

- Even v a full post treaty fast BB sometime you don't get a choice if you fight or run (think Jarvis bay defending something you cant run from etc) and 15" at least gives you a small chance 10" doesn't.

- R&R did fine as BCs in WW2 why could a later built one not do as well ?

- The 15" ship might act as a second (with the enemy already engaged) to one of your fast BBs and your 15" can help the fight much more.

- Status (in peace time navy's are ranked by capital ships 15" counts in totals, 10" will be a footnote and still cost as much and break the treaty's just as much)

- Both ships will easily kill any 8" CA they fight (or rather will not as it has run away first)

- I would argue that 12x10" is falling into the AC trap, you will be killed by a BC :mrgreen:

- I would argue that as long as you realize the weakness of the ship and don't tell it to stand a fight with post treaty BBs then its a better bargain.


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MihoshiK
Post subject: Re: United States of VenezuelaPosted: July 25th, 2015, 9:01 pm
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JSB wrote:
I would argue that maybe right for WW2 BC v WW2 fast BB BUT,

- Do S&G (and D&S,Kongo's,R&R,add any unmodernised WW1 BB) really count as WW2 BBs ? I would argue they all are too week to stand v a full treaty/post treaty fast BB.(and fast post treaty BBs are very limited in number anyway)

- Even v a full post treaty fast BB sometime you don't get a choice if you fight or run (think Jarvis bay defending something you cant run from etc) and 15" at least gives you a small chance 10" doesn't.

- R&R did fine as BCs in WW2 why could a later built one not do as well ?

- The 15" ship might act as a second (with the enemy already engaged) to one of your fast BBs and your 15" can help the fight much more.

- Status (in peace time navy's are ranked by capital ships 15" counts in totals, 10" will be a footnote and still cost as much and break the treaty's just as much)

- Both ships will easily kill any 8" CA they fight (or rather will not as it has run away first)

- I would argue that 12x10" is falling into the AC trap, you will be killed by a BC :mrgreen:

- I would argue that as long as you realize the weakness of the ship and don't tell it to stand a fight with post treaty BBs then its a better bargain.
The problem is still that a battlecruiser CANNOT stand hits from a battleship armed with the same kind of guns as it has, whereas a battleship CAN withstand hits from those guns. A battlecruiser is a very fast cruiser hunter. That's it. That's what it's armor is profiled for, and it's guns should be able to overmatch cruiser armor.
It's job is absolutely NOT to go and tangle with battleships, because the chances are a lot better than even that it will get it's arse handed to it. Speed is NOT armor, and no amoutn of smileys in the world will make it so.

You CAN give a battlecruiser battleship guns. But a battlecruiser commander, upon spotting a battleship coming his way, should as his very first action get the fuck outta dodge. Because his armor won't bounce a single shell. Fortunately he's in a ship fast enough to do so.

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JSB
Post subject: Re: United States of VenezuelaPosted: July 25th, 2015, 9:55 pm
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(sorry if this is derailing the thread...)

I would mostly agree with you, but in the case of the options above of say, 12x10", 6x15" or 8x10" (ie as medium or high or low options) (they are all effectively BCs just some are under armed as well)

Mid-I think that the middle road of 12x10" just doesn't make much sense, It doesn't give you much more than 8x10" (that will kill any 8" CA relatively easily or even stand v a PB if it has the same belt) and cant damage anything bigger.

Low-The low 8x10" gun option has a benefit of much less cost and therefore you can build more of them (but it will be disliked by all treaty powers just as much as it will make all 8" ships less good, note the ban on under 17,500t in 2LNT)

High-The 15" has a (sometimes small) chance v bigger ships (especially with help) so is therefore gives something more than the 10" gun ships.

I a world (as OTL) filled with lots of 8" CAs and 14"-15"-16" BBs with very few ships in between (apart from very old unmodernised BBs and a few Pocket battleships that are really just over armed CAs you then have a big jump to the S&G,S&D,Italian rebuilds, Kongo's and R&R) I just don't see the reason to go for the medium option ?

-The low ship beats all the 8" ships and has to run from bigger,
-The Med ship beats all the 8" ships and has to run from bigger, (but costs much more than the low ship)
-The High ship beats all the 8" ships and has a chance (at least to make them question attacking) v some of bigger ships (S&G,S&D,Italian rebuilds, Kongo's and R&R) and for not much if any more than the medium ship cost.

I therefore think you should go high or low not medium.

(the 15" guns may also save you from developing a new gun, and will threaten any larger ship especially if you are working with a fast battleship so your target is to busy to fire at you, or even as a last chance if you cant run you might just get lucky and an enemy raider a long way from home might not be willing to bet on that and force the fight)


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KIKE92
Post subject: Re: United States of VenezuelaPosted: July 25th, 2015, 10:29 pm
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JSB wrote:
(sorry if this is derailing the thread...)

I would mostly agree with you, but in the case of the options above of say, 12x10", 6x15" or 8x10" (ie as medium or high or low options) (they are all effectively BCs just some are under armed as well)

Mid-I think that the middle road of 12x10" just doesn't make much sense, It doesn't give you much more than 8x10" (that will kill any 8" CA relatively easily or even stand v a PB if it has the same belt) and cant damage anything bigger.

Low-The low 8x10" gun option has a benefit of much less cost and therefore you can build more of them (but it will be disliked by all treaty powers just as much as it will make all 8" ships less good, note the ban on under 17,500t in 2LNT)

High-The 15" has a (sometimes small) chance v bigger ships (especially with help) so is therefore gives something more than the 10" gun ships.

I a world (as OTL) filled with lots of 8" CAs and 14"-15"-16" BBs with very few ships in between (apart from very old unmodernised BBs and a few Pocket battleships that are really just over armed CAs you then have a big jump to the S&G,S&D,Italian rebuilds, Kongo's and R&R) I just don't see the reason to go for the medium option ?

-The low ship beats all the 8" ships and has to run from bigger,
-The Med ship beats all the 8" ships and has to run from bigger, (but costs much more than the low ship)
-The High ship beats all the 8" ships and has a chance (at least to make them question attacking) v some of bigger ships (S&G,S&D,Italian rebuilds, Kongo's and R&R) and for not much if any more than the medium ship cost.

I therefore think you should go high or low not medium.

(the 15" guns may also save you from developing a new gun, and will threaten any larger ship especially if you are working with a fast battleship so your target is to busy to fire at you, or even as a last chance if you cant run you might just get lucky and an enemy raider a long way from home might not be willing to bet on that and force the fight)
Not a problem your not derailing the thread at all, in fact this has been very interesting. I think im going to have to reorganize and probably redesign some of the cruisers i have in this AU (Barcelona Class, Miranda Class and this).:lol:

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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: United States of VenezuelaPosted: July 25th, 2015, 11:31 pm
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Those are good looking *.*-cruisers. The hull you have drawn for them with that flare forward is just beautiful.

The original premise you have given for the Aragua class was to counter the Deutschland class PB's. Once they are gone then fast carrier escort and shore bombardment. The 12x10" guns of your original drawing would do all of those jobs. The 12x10" would give you an edge over a PB so that you should win. It will depend on your armour statistics. (you have not given belt/deck thicknesses).

However, one of the reasons that the old 14-15-16" BB's were used almost exclusively for shore bombardment was the penetration power of those guns against the concrete emplacements constructed by the Japanese and Germans. Your 10" guns would not be so effective in that role.

The CV AA escort role requires ships as fast as the CV's they are escorting with a decent AA outfit and directors. Any of those four drawings would do that job.

The problem you have is that in 1935-36 when your cruisers are being designed - the main threat being catered for was the PB, with shore bombardment a secondary role. CV's are an unknown quantity.

To field a 15" triple on your ship will require 32-35 metres of breadth. To mount the twins you can get away with 30 metres.

Your 3rd and fourth drawings with 6 or 8 fifteen inch would fulfil all the roles you would like your ship to be capable of. The other armament values will do some but not all of the tasks you want the Aragua class to be able to do.


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JSB
Post subject: Re: United States of VenezuelaPosted: July 26th, 2015, 7:10 am
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Quote:
Your 3rd and fourth drawings with 6 or 8 fifteen inch would fulfil all the roles you would like your ship to be capable of. The other armament values will do some but not all of the tasks you want the Aragua class to be able to do.
Agreed, Since you should not fight post treaty BBs anyway 6 will do and be cheaper so Number 3 (IMO)

I would also add,
- why 2 sets of main directors ? (and no DP ?) you have USN/RN BB main directors and no 5" ones ?
- why the TT on a 15" ship ? (swap with boats ?)
- how much length do you need for the citadel to fit your MAGs/ERs/BRs and how long a hull for the speed ? I would cut the citadel as short as possible, the 2 areas you could cut IMO are the stern 5" and the front of the bridge
- apart from that my only concern would be the funnels are maybe a bit close to the bridge and the same hight as the stern director ? (might be ok just not sure ?)


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KIKE92
Post subject: Re: United States of VenezuelaPosted: August 7th, 2015, 12:22 pm
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Hi everyone, im still working on the cruisers but in the meantime here we have a new addition and un update for an old drawing.

I also added a bit of backstory for the USV in the first page.

Growing unrest (1740’s)
In Venezuela, the "Creoles" were upset by certain rules that were imposed by the Spanish, as Simon Bolivar later expressed in his letter of Jamaica: "... with galling restrictions; such are the prohibitions of cultivation of fruits of Europe the sealing of the king monopolized production, impairment of the factories the Peninsula itself does not possess exclusive trade privileges to the objects of primary necessity; the barriers between American provinces to not try, understand or negotiate. In addition to these reasons, was that the French, under the command of Napoleon had invaded Spain, forcing King Charles IV and his son Ferdinand VII to renounce the throne in favor of Napoleon, who put his brother, Joseph Bonaparte, as King of Spain.

Quest for alliances (1784-1799)
December 15, 1784 Miranda left the port of Boston for London seeking aid to emancipate Venezuela, after a trip that required about 56 days arrived in England on February 10, 1785. Miranda only presented his ideas about the independence of Venezuela to some British Cabinet ministers keeping his more ambitious continental plans secret. In order to secure British support, he offered the British business opportunities in Venezuela after independence.

Miranda passed through regions of present Belgium, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Poland, moving to Greek and Italian lands, where he remained for over a year, and visit the court of Catherine II(Catherine the Great), moved at that time from Moscow to Kiev, (current Ukraine). In Hungary was in the palace of Prince Nicholas Esterházy Hungarian (1765-1833), who was sympathetic to his ideas, and apart from welcome him kindly sent it to one of their gigs with a letter of recommendation to meet the famous musician Joseph Haydn, who lived and worked in the court of the Hungarian aristocrat.

British collaboration (1799-1806)
Venezuela’s main support for the independence movement came from British government which wanted to neutralize the Spanish threat. Miranda knew that he had to form an army and a navy to achieve his goals for this purpose he got the British government to help him assemble a modest but well trained army and navy. During the Napoleonic wars, the British Empire took control over the islands of Aruba, Bonaire and Curacao in 1799. The plan called for Venezuelan Patriots to be taken out of Venezuela and shipped to British colonies in the Caribbean were they would be trained and equipped for war against the Spanish, all of these overseen by Francisco the Miranda.

As many as 5000 patriots were taken out of Venezuela from 1799 onwards and taken to British colonies such as Jamaica, Guyana and Trinidad and Tobago where they were trained and equipped by the British Army. Miranda with help from British officers organized an army which he named the Patriot Army of Venezuela. Simultaneously the British government supplied the patriots with a number of ships, among them four frigates, six brigs and 10 schooners with the Royal Navy providing training for the newly formed Patriot Navy of Venezuela. A result of the British organizing the Patriot Army and Navy was the adoption by both of these forces of British doctrine and tactics, initially this small Venezuelan force was augmented by British soldiers and sailors. Its first missions consisted raids on Spanish merchant ships but it also concentrated on capturing military ships to boost its capabilities.

Road to independence (1806-1808)
In May 5 1806 a force of one frigate and three brigs left Georgetown (Guyana), the ships were carrying an expedition of more than 2000 Venezuelan soldiers commanded by Miranda himself, augmented by a force of 1000 British soldiers, the objective was to disembark on Venezuela’s eastern coast in the town of Güiria and to move southwest to take the town of Maturín. Arriving in Güiria on May 8, the expedition faced no resistance and immediately started to move south towards Maturín. At the same time the first battalions were moving towards Maturín a second regiment of 2000 Venezuelan and British soldiers arrived at Güiria, this group was ordered to move westwards to take the lightly defended coast town of Carúpano and use it as a base for Venezuelan Navy vessels. On 20 May 1806 Miranda and his regiment arrived at the outskirts of Maturín were they encountered a Spanish garrison with 1500 soldiers defending the town. In order to increase their chances of success Miranda sent a small group of soldiers to Maturín in the middle of the night on a sabotage raid, with the main objective being the Spanish powder reserves stored in the fortress. The sabotage mission proved a success with the Spanish forces getting completely disorganized during the chaos caused by the explosion inside the fortress, while this was happening Miranda ordered all of his soldiers to move forward and crush the distracted Spanish forces. After hours of battle the outnumbered Spanish forces surrendered after losing almost half of their soldiers, the rest were captured, the Patriot Army lost 228 Venezuelan soldiers and 152 British soldiers.

Immediately after the victory Miranda ordered his forces to fortify the town knowing that a Spanish counterattack was more than likely and time was needed for reinforcements and supplies to arrive and new soldiers to be recruited. While they were fortifying the town around 800 men who sympathized with the independence process were recruited into the Patriot Army and this helped replace the soldiers lost during the battle. At the same time the second group managed to capture Carúpano and started preparing for a Spanish counterattack and also started building a small port so ships could be based there. Although Miranda and the British officers had expected a counterattack this never materialized. Due to Spanish disastrous defeat at the battle of Trafalgar a considerable portion of Spanish soldiers were taken out of their posts in smaller towns like Maturín and were repositioned closer to more important cities like Caracas, Maracaibo and Barcelona, as a result the Spanish didn’t know about the presence of the Patriot Army on the east.

After taking Carúpano on the 12 of May the Patriot forces learned that a small Spanish fleet of five ships was expected at the city of Barcelona in two weeks with supplies, the commander of the Patriot regiment in Carúpano decided to take Barcelona before the Spanish ships arrived and seize the ships when they arrived, it was decided to enter the city at night to catch the Spanish garrison by surprise and more importantly to seize the city’s fortress. On the 15th of May two Venezuelan brigs and a frigate arrived in Carúpano with supplies and soldiers to assist the Patriot army, the ships would remain in Carúpano and later assist the army in the invasion of Barcelona. With the arrival of the new soldiers the total number went from 2000 to 2800 but in order to take a larger city like Barcelona it was decided to recruit locals in Carúpano, a total of 600 men were recruited into the Patriot Army in the small town, this took the total of soldiers to 3400 men. The Patriot commanders soon realized they had a problem, in order to take Barcelona they also had to take Cumaná as this town was between them and Barcelona, in order to neutralize the threat posed by Spanish forces in the town the three Venezuelan ships now stationed in Carúpano were sent to take Cumaná from the sea, while the army would invade it from land. It was decided that the army would invade the town first and the ships would provide support for the troops.

On the night of the 18th of May the attack on Cumaná began with 2500 men attacking the town from the South and ships bombarding enemy positions from the sea. Taking the town was expected to be an easy task but as soon as the Patriot army got close to the town they realized this would be no easy fight, the Spanish had positioned artillery pieces to protect the town from a land invasion and their soldiers were giving surprisingly tough resistance. The Spanish numbers were inferior to those of the patriots but their determination and defensive strategy were causing considerable loses to the patriot, realizing the amount of resistance the army was facing the commander of the Venezuelan ships gave the order to fire on the Spanish artillery in order to give the army a chance to enter the town. Finally after hours of continuous fighting the patriot army’s superior number combined with a steady barrage from the ships forced the remaining Spanish forces to surrender. Although the battle of Cumaná was considered a victory the amount of losses suffered by the army forced commanders to delay the invasion of Barcelona. It wasn`t until 20 May and the arrival of two Venezuelan ships in Cumaná carrying much needed supplies and soldiers that the plan to invade Barcelona was resumed. On the 22nd of May the patriot army arrived in Barcelona facing stiff resistance from Spanish forces although it wasn`t as tough as expected and the city was taken relatively easily much to the surprise of the Patriot forces, it turned out that an important part of the Spanish garrison in Barcelona had been sent to Caracas to help suffocate a revolt from pro-independence groups making it easier for the Patriot army to achieve success without many losses.

Preparing for the arrival of the Spanish fleet in Barcelona the patriots ordered their ships to hide at Chimana beach near Barcelona. On the 25th of May after the Spanish ships had been spotted entering Barcelona the five Venezuelan ships set sail to the city in order to blockade the port and seize the Spanish ships. While the Spanish ships were anchored at port patriot soldiers boarded the ships, the Spanish sailors knowing they had fallen into a trap had no choice but to surrendered. The seized ships provided the patriot forces with a much needed boost increasing the capabilities of the original fleet.

After the arrival of a third group of 1500 soldiers in Maturín Miranda managed to secure the town, this allowed Miranda and his Army to move South to take the town of Angostura which although small was of great strategic importance due to its location next to the Orinoco river, Miranda knew that if he could manage to secure the small town he could use the Orinoco river as a mayor supply line for the Patriot forces and also as way to transport his forces not only deep Into Venezuelan territory but also into New Granada. Although taking the small town was not expected to be a great challenge the Patriot army needed to cross the wide Orinoco River in order to reach the town this would put the soldiers in a very dangerous situation so it was decided to cross the river in location that was 96 km northwest of angostura which had an island in the middle of the river and would make the crossing easier.

The operation began on 4 June with the army crossing the river in the morning after which it started its march towards Angostura arriving on the 11th of June. Just as he had done in Maturín, Miranda waited until it was dark, to attack but this time the Patriot Army would suffer no losses, this was due to the overwhelming size difference between them and the Spanish force which was barely over 200 soldiers and commanded by an inexperienced officer, who instead of trying to repel the Patriots the ordered his forces to surrender. As soon as the town was secured it started to be used as supply trail for the war effort ultimately proving to be the most important support for the Patriot forces.

Miranda then decided to meet with the second group in Barcelona and start moving towards Caracas. Miranda and his army arrived in Barcelona on the 24th of June where they met with the second army group, after merging both regiments the total number of soldiers went up to 5560 and the number of ships in service with the Patriot Navy was increased to 5 frigates, 8 brigs and 12 schooners with the capture of the Spanish ships in Barcelona.

On the 10th of July an Army of 4500 soldiers began its march towards Caracas while 1060 soldiers would stay behind guarding Barcelona. The army arrived at the outskirts of Caracas in 18 June facing an army of 3000 men, but this time the Patriot army was well equipped to deal with the enemy defenses, among the supplies found on the Spanish ships in Barcelona were 8 artillery guns this allowed the Patriot army to erode Spanish defenses before sending the infantry to finish the job. After inflicting severe losses to the Spanish defenders Miranda ordered the infantry to advance into the city. The Patriot army reached the government building 15:00PM where the remaining defenders kept fighting to defend the Captain General but to no avail, the building was taken by Patriot soldiers at 16:23PM the Capital fallen to the Patriot army.

On 25 July Francisco de Miranda proclaimed the Republic of Venezuela although there would be no formal declaration of independence, news quickly began to spread around the territory, the Spanish finally learned of what was happening on the east of the Captaincy general. News then reached the Spanish monarchy which quickly dispatched ships and men to take care of the rebels. The next months were spent by Miranda and his collaborators organizing the country among the first steps was the creation of a congress and a constitution for the new Republic. Due to Miranda’s involvement in the US independence the new Venezuelan constitution resembled that of the United States, although there were important differences such as the abolition of slavery and the elimination of the caste system that had ruled Venezuelan society for centuries. Another important step was the establishment of the official armed forces, it was at this moment that the Patriot army and Navy became known as the Venezuelan Army and the Venezuelan Navy. An interesting measure adopted by the new government was the adoption of English as an official language together with Spanish, the reason for the adoption of a second language was the large number of English speaking Venezuelan as a result of training under the British and also because of Miranda’s ambitious continental plan and his vision of a better society.

After learning about what was in his country, a young advocate of freedom for the Americas by the name of Simón Bolívar immediately decided to go back and join this movement to free his country. Arriving in La Guaira in January 1807 Bolívar went to Caracas to meet the leaders of the newly founded “Republic”, Bolívar met Francisco de Miranda in Caracas who immediately recognized his fervent passion for armaments, liberty, and military strategy. Bolívar became an officer in the Venezuelan Army in command of an infantry company in La Guaira where most of the Venezuelan fleet was stationed, it wouldn’t be long before the young officer saw battle, on April 5th a fleet of 7 Spanish ships arrived at La Guaira intended on retaking the former Colony, the Venezuelan ships in port were sent to stop the Spanish in what was at the time the greatest naval engagement in Venezuelan waters. Two Spanish frigates, three brigs and four schooners faced off against three Venezuelan frigates, three brigs and four schooners aided by land based artillery.

The Venezuelan commanders knew that it was very important to prevent the ships from reaching the shore but they also wanted to capture some of them and commission them into the Venezuelan navy, so it was decided to carry soldiers in the Venezuelan ships to board the enemy ships and seize them, this was a risky maneuver since if any of the Venezuelan ships was lost and a large number of soldiers would be lost as well. Among the soldiers was Bolívar in command of his company which was tasked with boarding one of the Spanish frigates. Fortunately the strategy worked as by the end of the battle they had managed to capture almost all of the Spanish ships except for one schooner that was sunk, and although some of the Venezuelan ships were damaged during the battle they were all repaired in a few months.

For the next few months the situation remained relatively stable with the Patriot armies finally conquering the last remnants of Spanish resistance in Venezuelan soil and the annexation of the remaining territories that composed the Captaincy General of Venezuela, it wasn’t until May 1808 and Napoleon’s invasion of Spain that Miranda decided it was time start building the South American Empire he had envisioned, this plans were unknown to almost everyone only a few of his closest collaborators knew about them. Taking advantage of the peninsular war, on the 5th of July 1808 in Caracas the official declaration of independence from Spain was signed by the provinces that composed Venezuela at the time with Miranda elected by congress as the official president of the country (he had been the de facto president since the conquest of Caracas) for a four year term.

La Argentina Class
Argentina’s alliance with Germany immediately caused great concern among the other South American countries which quickly started modernizing their respective militaries in order to keep up with the Argentinian Armed Forces. The situation became more complicated in 1934 when another agreement was signed with Italy for military cooperation that allowed the Italian navy to also station ships in Argentina therefore increasing Axis military presence in the South Atlantic. One of the biggest sources of concern was Argentina’s acquisition of four units of the projected Littorio Class battleships two of which would be built in Argentina this meant that not only Venezuela, Brazil and Chile would likely encounter the German and Italian Navies in South America but also a very well equipped Argentinian Navy that was aspiring to become the greatest naval power in South America.

The Argentinian battleships were named La Argentina Class with construction of the first two ships beginning in 1934 in Italy with the both ships launched in 1938, simultaneously construction of the remaining two ships began in Argentina in early 1935 with the first ship launched in 1938 followed shortly by the last ship ordered. The first ship of the class was commissioned into the Argentinian navy in 1940 with the remaining ships following in 1941 and early 1942.

[ img ]

This is the updated Barcelona Class drawing:
[ img ]

Class overview
Name: Barcelona-class heavy cruiser
In commission: 1931–1950
Planned: 8
Completed: 8

General characteristics:
Type: heavy cruiser
Displacement:
Design: 18,000 tons
Full load: 20,000 long tons
Length: 200 m overall
Beam: 22 m
Propulsion:
3 × steam turbines
3 × three-blade propellers
135,000 shp (98 MW)
Speed: 34 knots (59 km/h; 37 mph)
Range: 6,800 nmi (12,600 km; 7,800 mi) at 20 kn (37 km/h; 23 mph)
Complement:
42 officers
1,340 enlisted
Armament:
6 × 12 in guns
11 × 5 in guns

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KIKE92
Post subject: Re: United States of VenezuelaPosted: August 13th, 2015, 10:52 am
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Hello everyone, i have made some modifications to the Aragua class cruiser and as a result of the discussion that took place on this thread i decided to make a battlecruiser based on the Aragua class, the main differences between this two classes are the armament and the hull. One of the changes i made to the Aragua class was the replacement of the twelve 10 inch guns with nine 12 inch guns in triple turrets, having being to counter the pocket battleships it is only designed to withstand fire from 11 inch guns. The new battlecruiser on the other hand was designed to to fight similar cruisers so it is equipped with better armor.

Aragua Class Large Cruiser
The Aragua class consisted of six large cruisers ordered before World War II for the Venezuelan Navy. The idea for a large cruiser class originated in the early 1930s when the Venezuelan Navy sought to counter Deutschland-class "pocket battleships" being launched by Germany. Planning for ships that eventually evolved into the Aragua class began in the late 1930s after the deployment of Germany's Deutschland-class ships and rumors that Japan was constructing a new battlecruiser class. The Aragua cruisers served with the Venezuelan Navy during World War II. Similar to the Sucre-class fast battleships, their speed and power made them useful as cruiser hunters and later as shore bombardment ships and fast carrier escorts.

[ img ]

Class overview:
Class & type: Aragua-class cruiser
Built: 1936–1944
In service: 1940–1955
Planned: 6
Completed: 6
Cancelled: 0
Lost: 0

General characteristics:
Displacement:
Design: 27.000 tons
Full load: 32,000 tons
Length: 233,18 m overall
Beam: 28 m
Speed: 33 knots
Range: 6,800 nmi (12,600 km; 7,800 mi) at 20 kn (37 km/h; 23 mph)
Complement: 1.500
Armament:
9 × 12 in guns
20 × 5 in guns
10 x 21 inch (533 mm) torpedo tubes


Monagas-Class Battlecruiser
The Monagas-class battlecruisers were a class of four Venezuelan Navy battlecruisers designed just before World War II. Their design began as an improved version of the Aragua-class large cruisers, but it was recast as a battlecruiser after a major redesign that took it from 27.000 tons to 34.000 tons and also called for the upgrade from 12 inch main guns to 15 inch guns. Just as the Aragua-class had been designed to counter the Deutschland-class cruisers, the Monagas-class was designed to counter the larger Scharnhorst-class battleships which were classified as battlecruisers by the Venezuelan Navy and also the Japanese Kongō-class battlecruisers and other smaller cruisers. The Monagas-class design reflected their intended role; a heavy main armament of nine 15 inch guns in three triple turrets for possible encounters with escorting 8.0 in-armed heavy cruisers or even similar battlecruisers, enough armor to defend against ships with similar firepower, and a high top speed so that they could get away from slower but much better armored capital ships.

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Class overview:
Class & type: Monágas-class cruiser
Built: 1938–1945
In service: 1942–1956
Planned: 6
Completed: 4
Cancelled: 2
Lost: 0

General characteristics:
Displacement:
Design: 34.000 tons
Full load: 40,000 tons
Length: 244,39 m overall
Beam: 32 m
Speed: 32 knots (59 km/h; 37 mph)
Range: 6,800 nmi (12,600 km; 7,800 mi) at 20 kn (37 km/h; 23 mph)
Complement: 1.500
Armament:
9 × 15 in guns
18 × 5 in guns

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