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JSB
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: RebootPosted: August 16th, 2015, 1:02 pm
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Setting the bar very high for AU ships 8-) :mrgreen: :D

Other than the drawings that all looks amazing regarding the spring sharp I have a few questions,
- Are all your guns not a little stretching the boundaries a long way with 720kg shell, 67.6lb loading, and /70 fast firing AA gun are all pushing 1940s tech (rather than 1934) (all gun dates are 1934 but they need to be earlier than ship ? (not that it changes weight much if you set your own shell weight))
- do 130/45 work well if hand loaded ? all DP guns with shells above 55lb failed to be able to have fast loading (and you have 67.6lb)
- will 720kg main shells and /70 AA work with 1934 metallurgy ?
- do you need to add misc weight ? (cats, directors, etc)
- do you need 180mm decks ? (may just be me but the rest of you armour doesn't look like it will deal with 18"/16" shells well so why just the deck ?)
- no aft CT for the director ?
Quote:
(except the Iowas, which is why I don't like them; they are too perfect)
I hope I'm not being too controversial but why are they to perfect ?
They are just a later generation than most other battleships so should be better but who do you compare them with ? They are laid down in 1940+ nothing else apart from Vanguard (and that was a Lion crippled by gun/mount production shortages) actually got completed of that generation of ships ?
Is Iowa not just faster versions of the SD class ? did they not have the same potential faults with the TDS etc ? and since they never really got hard tested in surface battle due to being to late before the CVs dominated everything how can we know ? :P )


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Garlicdesign
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: RebootPosted: August 21st, 2015, 8:36 am
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Hello everyone
JSB wrote:
Setting the bar very high for AU ships 8-) :mrgreen: :D

Other than the drawings that all looks amazing regarding the spring sharp I have a few questions,
- Are all your guns not a little stretching the boundaries a long way with 720kg shell, 67.6lb loading, and /70 fast firing AA gun are all pushing 1940s tech (rather than 1934) (all gun dates are 1934 but they need to be earlier than ship ? (not that it changes weight much if you set your own shell weight))
- do 130/45 work well if hand loaded ? all DP guns with shells above 55lb failed to be able to have fast loading (and you have 67.6lb)
- will 720kg main shells and /70 AA work with 1934 metallurgy ?
- do you need to add misc weight ? (cats, directors, etc)
- do you need 180mm decks ? (may just be me but the rest of you armour doesn't look like it will deal with 18"/16" shells well so why just the deck ?)
- no aft CT for the director ?
Quote:
(except the Iowas, which is why I don't like them; they are too perfect)
I hope I'm not being too controversial but why are they to perfect ?
They are just a later generation than most other battleships so should be better but who do you compare them with ? They are laid down in 1940+ nothing else apart from Vanguard (and that was a Lion crippled by gun/mount production shortages) actually got completed of that generation of ships ?
Is Iowa not just faster versions of the SD class ? did they not have the same potential faults with the TDS etc ? and since they never really got hard tested in surface battle due to being to late before the CVs dominated everything how can we know ? :P )

@ Krakatoa: most of your concerns are already dealt with in the text:

1. The main guns were designed for 600kg shells, but magazine and hoist arragements were already prepared to take 720kg shells which were still under development and not ready before 1940. Like the WWI-era US 356mm pieces, which were capable of upgrading to much heavier shells during WWII, the Thiarians balance the heavier Shell by lowering muzzle velocities; this also makes the guns more accurate. The 37/70s are essentially the same gun as the French 37/70 Mle.1933 which never made it into service because of unacceptably short barrel life; they were planned for Dunkerque and Strasbourg in 1933 before they were anywhere near completely developed. The Thiarian pieces also were included into the ship's design before they were ready; this was the case late in 1937. Unlike the French, Thiarian metallurgy is more advanced due to better availability of refined stell alloys, and their barrels are of better quality; still, as mentioned in the text they only have half the barrel life of a 40mm Bofors.
2. It does not. LA performance is excellent, HA much less so - better than the 5,25" because of higher training and elevating speed, but ROF is still insufficient. They will be replaced by 100mm on a follow-on design.
3. Yes. It's AU. Thiaria's metallurgy is top class, on par with the US. Believe it or not... ;)
4. Completely forgot. I looked up the weights of cats and directors (the superstructure itself does not feature in contemporary weight listings) and came to about 200 tons each. This would require a reduction of main gun barbette armour by 30mm, then everything fits again.
5. As mentioned in the text, these ships were designed as raiders who would try to keep the enemy at arm's length rather than slug it out, hence the long range, high aircraft capacity and an armour arrangement that emphasized defence against plunging Shells. Thus the discrepancy between modest vertical and thick horizontal armour. And it's two decks, 30mm upper and 150mm lower.
6. weight saving measure. The directors themselves are only splinter protected.

Concerning the Iowas: Compare them with their contemporaries (Vanguard, H39), and they still come out on top; due to Yamato's poor construction standards, unsophisticated fire control and low RoF, I personally am quite convinced any Iowa would get the better of Yamato one-on-one. Maybe they are not perfect, but they still play in another league, their firepower alone being infinitely better than anyone else's. It's my sad experience from wargaming that things become boring as soon as an Iowa is involved.

Greetings
GD


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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: RebootPosted: August 21st, 2015, 11:55 am
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Sorry GD, but you have it wrong, its JSB not Krakatoa.

In every game that is designed in the USA there is a built in cheat factor that makes it harder to defeat US forces than any other. Not because the equipment is better or more perfect but the main people who buy the games are US citizens who want to see the US win. If the US loses too often the game wont sell.


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Garlicdesign
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: RebootPosted: August 21st, 2015, 2:23 pm
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4. Post-treaty battleships

4.1. Wicked thoughts
Although they were balanced and capable ships, the Caithreims on paper were inferior to foreign 35.000-ton designs. As they had come out some 1.200 tons overweight, the Thiarians - rightly - assumed that the continental European battleships started in 1934 through 1936, which had eight or nine 381mm or eight 406mm guns and all were at least equal in speed and armour, were only possible if their builders cheated about their size on a massive scale. The British and Americans both started construction of similarly armed ships early in 1937; although the Thiarians were aware that US hull construction was so advanced that their hulls weighed 30% less than everyone else's, the British ships with their nine 381mm guns would certainly have about 40.000 tons as well. And if everybody cheats, the Thiarians reasoned, we need to cheat even more to win. Like the Japanese, they decided to activate the escalator clause of the LNT without telling anybody about it.

4.2. Athartha-Class
Design work on a follow-on to the Caithreims started in 1936. Initially, the plan was to develop a somewhat slower version of the Caithreims with nine 370mm L/50 guns. These pieces were a slightly improved development of the 370/45 guns designed during WWI, eight of which were earmarked for installation on LT Conaire during her next major refit. The guns were designed to fire 750kg shells over 38.000 meters at 35° elevation with a muzzle velocity of 825 m/s and a rate of one round every 25 seconds, using a german style wedge breech and brass propellant charge cases. Their late thirties development had a longer and more robust barrel capable of firing a super-heavy 900kg shell whose development started in 1936 at the same ROF and elevation over a distance of 40.000 meters and with a muzzle velocity of 775 m/s. RoF was set at two rounds per minute. These shells made the Thiarian 370mm guns superior to any foreign 381mm pieces. They were mounted in very large and spacious turrets who could take 406mm pieces as well; such were under development for a planned follow-on class that never materialized. During design work, it soon became obvious that any balanced battleship designed around these turrets would exceed 40.000 tons, which - as pointed out above - was considered perfectly acceptable. The hull was based upon the general shape of Caithreim's, but slightly longer and four meters more beamy for better stability and improved underwater protection. With all improvements worked in, standard deplacement rose to 44.900 tons, a figure unacceptable under current treaties, but which could be made legal by invoking the escalator clause as soon as anyone found out about their true size. Officially, their displacement was given as 35.000 tons until their completion, when stating the true figure was deemed more advantageous from a propaganda point of view. Although the engine arrangement was identical to Caithreim's and developed the same hp at nearly 9.000 tons more displacement, careful shaping of the hull gave them only one knot less design speed; like their predecessors, they were splendid sea boats and stable gun platforms. Maneuverability was not outstanding, with a tactical diameter of 1.100 meters. In terms of protection, they were a great step forward from the Caithreim's; they were designed to give an immunity zone not against their own shells, but against 406mm shells of 1.021kg as fired by the US Maryland class (the protection worked rather less well against US 1.226kg shells, as events would show). Like their predecessors, the new battleships were designed for long-range gunnery action, and particular emphasis was placed upon defeating plunging shells. Their belt had the same thickness of 310mm, but was mounted internally at 15° inclination between one and two meters inward from the outer hull. The outer hull itself was plated with 30mm of armour grade steel, enough to de-cap any incoming shell up to 406mm at any target angle. A 30mm armoured deck was placed on top of the main belt, designed to provide de-capping and fuze initiation; along the lower end of the belt, the main armoured deck (bending downwards 30° at the edges to provide enough room for the machinery) had a thickness of 180mm, enough to stop 500kg bombs without a scratch and also enough to deflect anything away from the vitals that might make its way through the main belt at low target angles. The whole design greatly resembled the armour arrangement on the newest French battleships, but with the armoured decks in inverse order (thin one on top, thick one below). The de-capping outer vertical belt was extended all the way to bow and stern; outside the citadel, its thickness was tripled, in order to prevent flooding from destroyer or light cruiser gunnery hits forward and aft. Torpedo protection was provided by a 45mm bulkhead covered by two void compartments and two compartments filled with ebonite mousse with a total width of four meters, arranged in the same way as on the Caithreim; in practice, the system worked very well. Apart from the main guns, these ships reverted to a mixed secondary battery, because the 130/45's performance against air targets was considered unsatisfactory due to the limited RoF at high elevations. Three 155mm triple turrets, the same ones as designed for the new Oirirceas-class light cruisers, were placed aft, one on the centerline superfiring the aft 370mm turret, two at the sides slightly forward of the centerline one. They did not even pretend to have AA capability. Heavy flak was provided by eight of the new 100mm L/60 twins, which were rated as one of the best heavy AA guns of the war; they were placed at the ship's sides, equally divided between the forward and aft arcs. This arrangement was rated twice as effective against airplanes as Caithreim's DP guns under service conditions. Intermediate flak was provided by eight 37mm quad demi-turrets, carefully arranged to minimize blast interference, which however did not work out perfectly (due to their magazine arrangements that included hoists connecting them directly to the turrets, they could not simply be placed on top of the superstructure like a 40mm Bofors quad). The armament was completed by a thirty-two 20mm Hispano-Suiza cannon in sixteen twin mounts; unlike the Caithreim's, their successors were never supposed to carry 13mm quad MGs. Two main artillery directors, two secondary LA directors and six HA directors were carried, plus one for each 37mm mount, providing these ships with the ability to engage multiple targets at once. The main artillery directors were one-axis stabilized to allow for firing while maneuvering, but that system never worked reliably and usually was disconnected. Airplane complement was reduced to four, mostly due to considerations of onboard space and not due to a re-evaluation of requirements. The airplane handling facilities resembled Caithreim's, but with two cranes rather than just one; as before, their design was awkward and used up more space than necessary. Although they shared many outward design features with the Caithreims, their profile looked much different because the boiler uptakes were trunked into a single huge funnel. Originally, the design included no main mast at all, but one of the ships received one prior to completion. The other one was fitted as fleet flagship with an additional bridge level. They also differed concerning the arrangement of the forward 37mm directors, which were placed side by side on the first ship and staggered on the centerline on the second ship; the latter configuration was considered favourable. Otherwise, there were not many differences between them; with the different shape of the upper bridge and the missing main mast on the second ship, they were nevertheless easily distinguishable.

Athartha, Thiaria battleship laid down 1938

Displacement:
42.521 t light; 44.922 t standard; 48.205 t normal; 50.831 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(833,34 ft / 807,09 ft) x 114,83 ft x (31,50 / 32,85 ft)
(254,00 m / 246,00 m) x 35,00 m x (9,60 / 10,01 m)

Armament:
9 - 14,57" / 370 mm 50,0 cal guns - 1.984,16lbs / 900,00kg shells, 100 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1938 Model
3 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
9 - 6,10" / 155 mm 55,0 cal guns - 122,64lbs / 55,63kg shells, 250 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1938 Model
2 x 3-gun mounts on sides, aft deck centre
1 x 3-gun mount on centreline, aft deck centre
1 raised mount
16 - 3,94" / 100 mm 60,0 cal guns - 33,42lbs / 15,16kg shells, 400 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1938 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
32 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 70,0 cal guns - 1,72lbs / 0,78kg shells, 4.000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1938 Model
8 x 2 row quad mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
32 - 0,79" / 20,0 mm 80,0 cal guns - 0,29lbs / 0,13kg shells, 10.000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1938 Model
12 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
4 x Twin mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
4 double raised mounts
Weight of broadside 19.560 lbs / 8.872 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13,4" / 340 mm 434,78 ft / 132,52 m 12,66 ft / 3,86 m
Ends: 3,94" / 100 mm 372,28 ft / 113,47 m 12,66 ft / 3,86 m
Main Belt covers 83% of normal length
Main Belt inclined 15,00 degrees (positive = in)

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
3,94" / 100 mm 434,78 ft / 132,52 m 29,23 ft / 8,91 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 88,58 ft / 27,00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16,5" / 420 mm 10,8" / 275 mm 13,4" / 340 mm
2nd: 7,09" / 180 mm 3,54" / 90 mm 4,33" / 110 mm
3rd: 1,97" / 50 mm 0,79" / 20 mm -
4th: 1,97" / 50 mm 0,79" / 20 mm -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 7,87" / 200 mm
Forecastle: 1,97" / 50 mm Quarter deck: 3,94" / 100 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 16,54" / 420 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 3 shafts, 135.000 shp / 100.710 Kw = 29,03 kts
Range 10.000nm at 15,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5.908 tons

Complement:
1.626 - 2.114

Cost:
£21,087 million / $84,346 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3.958 tons, 8,2%
- Guns: 3.935 tons, 8,2%
- Weapons: 23 tons, 0,0%
Armour: 18.694 tons, 38,8%
- Belts: 4.000 tons, 8,3%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1.851 tons, 3,8%
- Armament: 3.658 tons, 7,6%
- Armour Deck: 8.712 tons, 18,1%
- Conning Tower: 472 tons, 1,0%
Machinery: 3.697 tons, 7,7%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 15.773 tons, 32,7%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5.684 tons, 11,8%
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 0,8%
- On freeboard deck: 200 tons
- Above deck: 200 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
85.050 lbs / 38.578 Kg = 55,0 x 14,6 " / 370 mm shells or 11,1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,14
Metacentric height 7,9 ft / 2,4 m
Roll period: 17,2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,61
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,22

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a straight bulbous bow and small transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,578 / 0,584
Length to Beam Ratio: 7,03 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30,83 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 35,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20,00%, 32,81 ft / 10,00 m, 26,25 ft / 8,00 m
- Forward deck: 30,00%, 26,25 ft / 8,00 m, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
- Aft deck: 32,00%, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m
- Quarter deck: 18,00%, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m, 23,95 ft / 7,30 m
- Average freeboard: 24,73 ft / 7,54 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76,4%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 187,6%
Waterplane Area: 68.063 Square feet or 6.323 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 213 lbs/sq ft or 1.041 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,96
- Longitudinal: 1,32
- Overall: 1,00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

The first ship was laid down in November 1937 at the Abernenui naval yard; despite the massive size of the ship, the somewhat optimistic estimated building time of 54 months was only slightly exceeded. The ship was launched in February 1939, when Thiaria's fleet was just being badly clobbered by the British, and received the name Athartha (Gaelic: Fatherland); fitting out went ahead with all haste, and the ship was accepted by the navy in May 1942. The second ship was laid down in June 1938 at the private CSCA yard, departing from the practice of awarding all capital ships to naval yards which was established after the first world war. As usual at this yard, construction went ahead swiftly and could be completed slightly ahead of schedule in September 1942. She received the name LT Tirghra (Gaelic: Patriotism). By the time they were completed, the number of 20mm guns was increased to 40 on Tirghra and to 36 on Athartha. Although these ships were urgently needed, they were thoroughly worked up before they were thrown into battle, and so they missed the battle of Meanchiorcal in September 1942. Athartha was declared fully operational in October 1942, Tirghra in January 1943.
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During the Panama raid, Athartha was stationed at New Portugal to be thrown at any Brazilian incursion, which however failed to materialize. As soon as she was reinforced by the freshly repaired fleet carrier Stoidiaca in December, she made two sweeps into the central Atlantic, but failed to make contact with enemy forces. On the second one in February 1943, the Thiarian task force appeared off Dakar, and a Thiarian admiral covertly went ashore in order to convince the French, who had the battleship Richelieu, two light cruisers and six modern destroyers at their disposal, to join them in their fight against the British. The Governor of Dakar, who secretly leaned towards the allies, clandestinely informed the US consulate and then played for time while the Allies dispatched three battleships and three aircraft carriers from Gibraltar. Fortunately for them, the Thiarians became suspicious and left Dakar just before the Allies came in range. Their inglorious retreat shatttered the confidence of the Vichy sympathizers at Dakar, and the governor managed to bring Dakar and its naval squadron over to the free French side in early March 1943, turning the Thiarian visit at Dakar into one of the worst diplomatic disasters for the Axis during the war. A few days after Dakar's defection, both Athartha-class battleships took part in the battle of Faoigabhar, which is described in detail above. Athartha fired at the British flagship HMS Queen Mary and nearly sank her; the British were lucky their engines held together and she escaped after having sustained twenty hits. Tirghra chased the British carrier Golden Hind, but failed to get her in range; the light cruiser Euphrates valiantly placed itself between Tirghra and the carrier and was blown up by a 370mm shell through her forward magazines. Neither Thiarian ship sustained significant damage; Athartha absorbed seven 381mm hits from Queen Mary, all of which were stopped by her armour, and she was quickly repaired. The successful Allied invasion of French North Africa in May 1943, followed by an Axis ground counteroffensive through Algeria which could be stopped just short of Algiers and several accompanying naval battles that sapped the remaining Italian strength, tied Allied naval power to the western Mediterranean for a while, and the Thiarians - for the last time - sent their battleships on a large foray, this time into the Indian Ocean. Accompanied by the carrier LT Chros Deisceart and two heavy cruisers, Athartha and Tirghra rounded Cape Hoorn in June 1943 and attacked a small British convoy off the southern tip of Madagaskar. The convoy scattered and only six of sixteen transports were sunk; the mission was then called off when LT Athartha was torpedoed by HM Submarine Thanet, although damage was slight. By August 1943, the Allies had the German-Italian tank army in Algeria on full retreat and the Italian fleet thoroughly exhausted; Egypt was re-taken within three weeks in August practically without a fight. Many allied naval assets which had previously been needed in the Mediterranean - including the French battleship Strasbourg, the heavy cruiser Foch, the light cruiser Jean de Vienne and ten destroyers which had managed to escape from Toulon when the Germans came in June 1943 - were now freed for use in the Southern Atlantic, and on August 27th, they tried to catch a major Thiarian supply convoy including six Avgas tankers en route to New Portugal. Only the timely arrival of the Thiarian main fleet, led by the flagship LT Tirghra, made the British back off. Another large-scale raid in September came in range of Thiarian land-based aircraft and was bloodily repulsed; Tirghra exchanged some rounds with the small british battleship HMS Africa at extreme distance, but to little effect. Athartha was back in service in October and spent the rest of the year providing distant cover for convoys to New Portugal, together with her sister. In December, Italy descended into civil war after the successful allied invasion of Sicily a month before, and considerable Allied naval assets became free for use in the South Atlantic. They immediately assembled for a decisive strike against New Portugal. In April, the entire Thiarian main fleet was lured away from New Portugal by an US-Brazilian diversionary sweep towards the River Plate estuary; both fleets met just outside the range of land-based Thiarian air in the battle of Anfa Caolas, last big surface gunnery engagement in the Atlantic. At that time, Tirghra still looked pretty much the same as at the time of her commissioning; Athartha had received the latest radar sets during her repairs in August and September, and the number of 20mm cannon was increased to 48.
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The battle of Anfa Caolas commenced with an exchange of air strikes, with the carriers of both sides trying to take each other out. Both sides pretty much succeeded, and as the Allies were very much aware of Thiarian operational doctrine which called for powerful surface forces to follow up airstrikes by moving into the enemy and finish him, the Brazilian battleships Aquidaban and Niteroi stayed with the carriers to fend off such an attack. The US battleships Iowa, President and Congress under Vice Admiral Ingram charged ahead to catch the Thiarian carriers and finish them off, which was the unexpected thing to do, because US doctrine emphasized air strikes as the primary means of anti-surface attack and usually assigned only a covering role to its battleships. Thus, three US and four Thiarian battleship met in the middle of the ocean without air support. The Thiarians sent the battlecruisers Conlan and Caithreim to deal with the US battlecruisers - the results are described above under the entry about the Caithreim-class - while Athartha and Tirghra both attacked USS Iowa. Tirghra was in range first and quickly bracketed her; in the next thirty minutes, she dealt fifteen hits to USS Iowa, which created much havoc in the superstructure and caused some flooding forward, but did not come close to endangering the ship. Iowa's deadly precise return fire hit Tirghra seventeen times in as many minutes, with seven of the shells penetrating into Tirghra's vitals, completely disabling her and wounding the Thiarian fleet commander Vice Admiral Cuighnahan. But as Tirghra just seemed to be finished, Athartha had bracketed Iowa as well, and in addition, LT Caithreim, which had just sunk USS President with embarrassingly little in return, came into range to aid the critically damaged flagship Tirghra. Iowa had withstood Thiarian fire well so far, and her skipper decided to dispatch Caithreim first to avenge the President, then turn on Athartha. This proved a mistake. As Caithreim was pointed straight at him and presented the smallest possible target, he failed to hit her with his first six salvoes. By that time, Athartha was scoring hit after hit on Iowa, and Iowa's skipper decided to switch targets. It was too late. Before Athartha could be bracketed, two of her shells hit areas where Iowa's armour was already structurally weakened by previous hits from Tirghra, and as a result, penetrated into her vitals where it hurt most. A magazine full to the rim with 127mm shells - there had been very little need for AA fire so far during the battle - exploded, creating massive flooding and taking out one of Iowa's turbine sets and half her electric power plant. She briefly lost steerage and started to list, and her stabilized fire control system lost power; for several minutes, Iowa's fire was quite random and hit nothing. All the while, Athartha poured shells into her, making the flooding worse. Just as Iowa's fire-control was up again, a series of hits into her forward citadel caused another major explosion which disabled both forward turrets, and her list increased to 20°, with the forecastle totally awash. This was the end, and the order to abandon ship and scuttle what remained was given. Athartha kept shooting at her from less than 10.000 meters away before she went down, counting a total of 47 hits (plus the 15 of Tirghra and six by Caithreim) and taking Vice Admiral Ingram with her. After the battle, the Thiarians made a gargantuan effort to bring the crippled Tirghra to the nearest port, which happened to be Montevideo; the rest of the fleet returned to Thiaria proper to lick its wounds. They were in no shape to bring the next supply convoy to New Portugal, and the island eventually ran out of avgas. Considerations to throw the remaining fleet - meaning mostly Athartha and Caithreim - against the Allied invasion of New Portugal were rejected as suicidal, and the fleet was only employed to cover convoys to Montevideo after April 1944. They scared off several raids, but then they came too late and a major convoy was massacred in May 1944, with dire consequences for the Thiarian expeditionary army in Uruguay. It had taken the Thiarians till July to patch up Tirghra enough for the journey back to Nuatearman where she was to receive final repairs. Manpower shortages at the naval yards - the Thiarians were busy drafting every available man into their newly established home-defence militia - resulted in a delay till August before final repairs could be begun. During that time, the rest of the Thiarian main fleet made no major sorties any more, preparing for the final battle against the inevitable invasion. Before this happened, Thiaria had its own civil war (details described elsewhere), and the repair of Tirghra never really started. She was at anchor off Noyalo with a caretaker crew when the first units of the fleet mutinied. Her crew eventually joined the mutiny, manning Turret A and pointing it at the Taoirseach's office building. They threatened to flatten it if Prime Minister Murchada would not immediately step down, but their ship was boarded by teams from several nearby loyalist ships on October 9th. The outnumbered mutineers fled into the magazines and threatened to blow them up if not allowed to leave freely; the Marine colonel commanding the boarding team ordered the magazines flooded. A few minutes later, 28 remaining shells detonated, blowing Turret A cleanly overboard and creating considerable internal damage. Remarkably, Tirghra refused to sink and could be towed into a nearby floating dock. She nevertheless was a constructive total loss by then and was never reactivated. She was officially ceded to Great Britain as a prize, but broken up right where she was in 1949. Athartha did not last much longer, but had a much more interesting time in between. Soon after the events on Tirghra, the main body of the fleet joined the rebels and went to An Trionaid at orders of Vice Admiral Toibin, who had placed the capable and brave, but politically extreme fleet commander Admiral Cuighnahan under arrest. LT Athartha surrendered to the English with the rest of the fleet on November 30th. Being in prime condition, she was among the ships selected for service alongside the Allies in the Pacific as co-belligerents and received a similar conversion as Caithreim, landing all 20mm cannon and replacing them by a total of 32 37mm barrels in navalized single army mounts. She was painted blue all over for pacific service, resembling Measure 21, but with Thiarian standard blue instead of Navy blue.
[ img ]

The Thiarian fleet arrived in Pearl Harbour on April 30th, 1945 and went on the offensive alongside the Americans. During these operations, Athartha always operated together with Caithreim, whose actions are exhaustively described above. During the battle of the Leyte Gulf, Conlan and Caithreim for a brief period of time were all that stood between Admiral Kurita's eight battleships and the US invasion fleet; while Caithreim single-handedly chased two japanese battlecruisers who had managed to break through allied lines, Atharta covered her against two pursuing Axis capital ships, Nagato and the Kokoan Nakamori. Both fired at Athartha with everything they had and hit her sixteen times, but she still was in better shape than Tirghra after she received seventeen hits in the same time from USS Iowa alone. Her return fire did very heavy damage to Nakamori (one of her salvoes scored seven hits out of nine shots fired, setting an eternal world record for surface gunnery); she eventually had to retreat after three torpedo hits from Thiarian destroyers. Athartha then turned on Nagato, which quickly went on retreat as well after US airplanes were sighted, but Athartha also came under fire by the Japanese flagship Yamato and eventually had to retreat. After the battle, Athartha returned to Pearl Harbour via Ulithi for repairs; in late December 1945, she reached Puget Sound Navy yard. Priority for repairs was low, and work was not begun before March 1946. She was again ready for service in June, but did not reach the front before the war was over. The Thiarian fleet was immediately ordered back to San Francisco and interned there. The crews were released, the ships confiscated. When the peace was signed eighteen months later, Athartha was - like the wreck of her sister - awarded to Great Britain as a prize. She was transferred to Plymouth late in 1948, used for trials and scrapped in 1950.

This post wraps Thiarian battleships. For the rest of the year, I'll do real ships... Thiarian cruisers to come later.

Greetings
GD


Last edited by Garlicdesign on April 22nd, 2016, 8:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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BB1987
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: RebootPosted: August 21st, 2015, 2:48 pm
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Splendid ship as usual :D

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emperor_andreas
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: RebootPosted: August 21st, 2015, 3:29 pm
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AWESOME! Especially the camo schemes!

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TimothyC
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: RebootPosted: August 21st, 2015, 4:36 pm
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Garlicdesign wrote:
The Thiarian fleet arrived in Pearl Harbour on April 30th, 1945, three days before America's second atomic bomb was dropped on Berlin, evaporating most of the Nazi leadership including Hitler (the first one was lost a week earlier when the bomber carrying her was shot down by a German 'Wasserfall' SAM). More bombs were not available for the time being, and new production would take at least a year.
And you lost me.

US Bomb production slowed so quickly because the US took the time to rebuild the production lines (the original lines were hurried and slightly unsafe). Presuming a Manhattan Project accelerated to meet the demands of a pair of bombs in early 45, you should be looking at a sustained rate of 5-10 bombs per month by September, and with the war still ongoing, there are no conceivable situations where the US does the production line stand-down.

Also, The bombs had serious amounts of armor on them, and were Salvage fused - that is, they would go off if bellow a specified altitude, preventing anyone from capturing an intact device.

Edit: Ok, I had the rate wrong, but the staff planning documents (as typed up and posted here) call for a one month lag, and then sustained production at one bomb every ten days or so - indefinitely.

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Last edited by TimothyC on August 21st, 2015, 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Gollevainen
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: RebootPosted: August 21st, 2015, 5:07 pm
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these are really nice additions and great contiunity for the stories as well. Specially the soviet versions, I like the color you've chosen, perhaps best presentation of the russian dark green scheme sofar in the bucket . The radar set is bit inconsistent in the rebuild version, but not by much. The level of detailing is generally really great in your ships.

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Garlicdesign
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: RebootPosted: August 21st, 2015, 6:05 pm
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Hello again
TimothyC wrote:
the staff planning documents (as typed up and posted here) call for a one month lag, and then sustained production at one bomb every ten days or so - indefinitely.
Thanks for pointing that out, I did not really research that one. Post edited. These 30.000 dead are upon your head, TJ, I'm afraid... :twisted:
Something had to delay the Manhattan Project, or all these nice naval battles would never have happened, and wouldn't that be a pity.

Greetings
GD


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TimothyC
Post subject: Re: Thiaria: RebootPosted: August 21st, 2015, 6:38 pm
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Garlicdesign wrote:
Hello again
TimothyC wrote:
the staff planning documents (as typed up and posted here) call for a one month lag, and then sustained production at one bomb every ten days or so - indefinitely.
Thanks for pointing that out, I did not really research that one. Post edited. These 30.000 dead are upon your head, TJ, I'm afraid... :twisted:
Something had to delay the Manhattan Project, or all these nice naval battles would never have happened, and wouldn't that be a pity.

Greetings
GD
Congratulations you've slowed the program, but Oak Ridge was only one part of the production line. The Plutonium production facility at Hanford will still be running, which means a bomb production rate of about one per month is reasonable. In short, once because of the way the entire program was structured, the only place really critical location (as far as keeping the bomb production line open) was Los Alamos - and good luck shutting that one down.

Edit:

To be clear, the reason I'm critical of this in your AU is because broadly speaking, the AU is so good, so issues I have like this one stand out like a sore thumb.

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