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Tromp-Class FFGs with Sea Dart
http://67.205.157.234/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1403		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  bezobrazov [ June 22nd, 2011, 10:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Tromp-Class FFGs with Sea Dart
I've tried to research the joint British-Dutch project to exchange the Sea dart system for the Dutch HSA SPS-01 multifunction radar system. Alas I have not been able to find any sketches or drawings or any other viable illustrations of how a Tromp armed with the Sea Dart may have looked like. I have come to the conclusion that it is due to the very fluid nature of the semi-official agreement reached in 1962 and then repealed two years later. There simply wasn't any incentive to start even sketching such vessels!

Now, however, since ace converted the original Tromp to his 1967 edition with Tartar, I have taken the liberty of using it to create three viable version of a Sea Dart armed Tromp. My drawings are in this perspective pure conjecture, but should still be termed 'never-built' designs since they are, in most respects, faithfully replicating what the Dutch later came to utilize on either the Tromps or the van Speijks. At one time there was a speculation whether the Dutch would go with the Ikara system, since the British at the time were designing the Bristol-class of six destroyers (of which only the Bristol herself ever materialized!) I've also speculated in a Sea Wolf version, which, albeith the fact that it wasn't operational at the time of the design, nevertheless come into service around 1972, when the Tromps would have been laid down, and thus can be regarded as a viable alternative to the Sea Sparrow system ultimately adopted. The last version is for a simple Sea Cat system with two quad launchers instead of the Sea Sparrow. There are no indication that the Dutch ever planned to arm their new flagships with this, but it was purchased by them for arming the van Speijks, so I have included it here as a comparision. For the concept ship I've reverted to the oblong, drop-formed funnel as seen in the original sketch and I have provided the ship with additional British-made electronic equipments.

Without further ado; here is version one: Sea Dart and Ikara:
[ img ]

Version two: Sea Dart and Sea Wolf:
[ img ]

Version three: Sea Dart and Sea Cat:
[ img ]
Author:  acelanceloet [ June 23rd, 2011, 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tromp-Class FFGs with Sea Dart
a few problems with these. first of all: none of them have directors for the guns. on the seacat version, the aft director makes no sense. I would say that the sea dart director at the bow would be placed on top of the bridge. also, I think the RNLN would always use dutch electronics if possible, so the WM-20 would stay and maybe they would even have designed new directors for the sea dart.
other then that, nice work, although I think you have made my (already ugly) version even uglier....

btw, the name in the template needs correcting ;)

EDIT: and maybe one little thing, maybe switch our names around in the template, so when these are uploaded it is clear who made them ;)
I don't think they should be uploaded though, there are so many things that are up to speculation here....
Author:  MihoshiK [ June 23rd, 2011, 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tromp-Class FFGs with Sea Dart
In addition, you can't have the seawolf version either. No type 910 directors... Seawolf isn't self-guided.
Author:  erik_t [ June 23rd, 2011, 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tromp-Class FFGs with Sea Dart
Type 909 (the Sea Dart illuminator) also functions as a gun director in British service.
Author:  acelanceloet [ June 23rd, 2011, 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tromp-Class FFGs with Sea Dart
I stand corrected on that then. ow and I just saw: the stair to the bridge is in an very weird position now, ending somewhere in the air.
Author:  erik_t [ June 23rd, 2011, 6:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tromp-Class FFGs with Sea Dart
The Sea Wolf version still has Ikara directors, which would not be necessary.

The forward Type 909 is in a pretty unfavorable position, probably unable to train to any bearing aft of amidships. I'd rather have both directors aft, if you can't move it forward somewhat to improve the field of view.

The Ikara setup you've used is the British version, much heavier and more complex than the Australian version (due to, as I recall, nuclear control reasons). You'd have no nukes, so I'd go with amidships Ikara launchers like on the Australian versions of the C.F. Adams.
Author:  bezobrazov [ June 23rd, 2011, 9:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tromp-Class FFGs with Sea Dart
@ ace: yes, I totally agree with you about the 'uglifying' an already ugly design; there's no doubt there! As erik pointed out re: the Type 909 target aquisition/Illuminator is designated in my hypothesis to control the main gun armament, though we can never take it for granted that the thrifty, ingenious Dutch wouldn't have designed their own electronics. But, like I presumed in the ingresse, I am assuming that most of the systems thus aquired would've been British-made. As for the ladder, I think your version has the same, so that one will be left hanging then too! Won't it? - Besides I do honestly fail to see how it is 'hanging' in the air. And, ace, what about the name (-s)? The Sea Dart project started (discussions, that is!) already in 1962, it was cancelled in 1964/65, but lingered on till a definite decision was made on the arming of the Tromps, around 1968. So, in other words, I think I have it quite precicely down. As for the crediting - what's wrong there? I simply retained what we had...isn't that good enough? I'm not looking to enhance myself or, for that matter anyone else unnecessarily...-and, methinks I need the aft directors for the Sea Cat!

@ Miho: yes, normally you'd be right, but there's nothing to prevent the Type 909 to double here as a director for the Sea Wolf. Also, that's why I retained the otherwise redundant Ikara directors; they're not devoted Ikara directors anymore, but rather supplemental ones for the Sea Wolf! But I can agree with a notion that it could've been solved more neatly - hence why I decided to go ahead and post, to get more ideas on how to solve the different matters!

@ erik: yes, you're right about the heavier Ikara, but here I simply copied the one which was installed on the Bristol. As you know, the Italian cruiser Giuseppe Garibaldi in her rebuild (1961-64) was fitted for but never carried the Polaris ICBM, though Italy never has been a nuclear power. In this perspective it's not wholly inconceivable to presume that a similar agreement could've been reached between the British and Dutch governments. I can, time permitting, attempt your solution, too, by all means, but my main idea will be this particular Ikara, right or wrong, for the above stated reasons.
Author:  acelanceloet [ June 23rd, 2011, 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tromp-Class FFGs with Sea Dart
ladder: yours is going next to the deck, mine is going through the deck. so mine is mounted against the wall, yours ends at the outside of the railing one deck lower
name: please put the versions (ikara, seawolf etc) in the name, it is going to be confusing otherwise when uploaded.
credits: you are the last author, not me, so your name should be last. otherwise it looks like I made these, not you.
sea cat: look at the van speijk: launcher aft, directors aft. no directors up front there.... so here there should be none at the rear, IMHO.
Author:  Mitchell van Os [ June 23rd, 2011, 9:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tromp-Class FFGs with Sea Dart
Ace the ladders arnt neccersery like that.
There are also ladders in the RNLN with ladders at the wall, and then ending up at the outside.
This method is also used on sail ships :lol:
Author:  acelanceloet [ June 23rd, 2011, 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Tromp-Class FFGs with Sea Dart
yeah, but his ends up in the air :P
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